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Displays Everything About Monitors - Guide

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by GoodBytes, 19 Oct 2011.

  1. Siwini

    Siwini What is 4+no.5?

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    3 things: 1. I never called you my bud. 2. I’m just pointing out that your statement is not accurate. 3. You can relax, being a graphic designer gives you no right in being an a hole. And don’t even get me started on toothpaste:thumb:
     
  2. microsoftPerson

    microsoftPerson New Member

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    You can't even read your own posts - why should one expect you to be able to read others? You did not point out a flaw in my statement(s) as you did not even address any of them. Rather, you spewed some verbal sewage regarding Mercedes' resale values (which, if you're still having trouble understanding, was never the point).
     
  3. Siwini

    Siwini What is 4+no.5?

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    Can't read my posts? If your referring to me calling u bud it's what is called figure of speech. If you don't know what that means use google. Look it up :clap:
     
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  4. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Guys, calm down.
     
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  5. longweight

    longweight Possibly Longbeard.

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    The main thing I love about my U2711 is the high resolution. Yes the colour reproduction appears to be much better but the resolution makes the biggest difference to me, I can use one screen to multi-task whereas at work I have 2 TN panels that are both pretty poor.

    The LG IPS 23" is an amazing monitor, why you would recommend anything else for that price is beyond me. My brother has 2 and I am seriously looking at getting 2 for my work.
     
  6. .//TuNdRa

    .//TuNdRa Resident Bulldozer Guru

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    Admittedly; I don't think I'll have another jump as huge as the one from my first TN panel to my original BenQ G2220, (Samsung Syncmaster 170MB - BenQ G2220HD, for those of you wondering)

    I would reccomend my current screen (G2222) to anyone who doesn't want to spend a hair over £105, however. I know that an extra £40 could get you the ever astounding LG IPS, however. It's making me wish it was on the market when I bought this. Not to say this is bad, per se', it's just not that astounding. The normal preset is somewhat washed out, and you have to sit down and configure one of the others to be able to get good colour representation off it, afterwards it is a reasonable screen, however, Limited to DVI and D-sub inputs, but that's to be expected from an el' cheapo £100~ Tn 1080P panel.
     
  7. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    It's overhyped IMO (and I would like to reiterate that: the following rant is my OPINION). :thumb:

    I work with professional level H-IPS monitors for several hours every day, and they don't astound me - they just do their job, and do it well. Side-by-side with TN the differences are apparent, and ofc the quality of the IPS panel is better (I'd hope so, given I paid 6x as much for it)... but really, I don't consider IPS to be astounding...it's just better, and good enough to do what TN can't do (viewing angles, very accurate and consistent calibration which means many things: colour, temperature, luminance, gamma etc).

    Now what I write above isn't just meaningless drivel: I actually set up my old (and very obviously faulty :D) el-cheapo £95 Packard Bell 23" TN monitor beside one of my NEC LDC2490WUXi2 £600+ H-IPS monitors which I use for work, both displaying 1920x1080 with no distortion. I took a photo exposing for the screens and filling the room with flash fired behind me to give the subject a little context.

    The result:

    [​IMG]

    Now I know it's only one picture and as such it is limited in what it can convey (especially if you view it on a TN monitor, rofl :duh:), but really, does everybody see "astounding" on the left and "****" on the right? I certainly don't, and I'm sitting in front of the actual screens rather than looking at a picture.

    Whilst there are some obvious differences between the two panels, the TN still looks good in and of itself; in fact, I think it looks really good - contrast is nice, blacks are deep, and colours are...colourful LOL. What more could you want when playing a game? Wide gamut? Colour-managed kill/death ratio? :D

    I can take more comparison photos if y'all want. :thumb:
     
  8. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    IPS is the one on the left (white one), and TN on the right (black one)

    First , your background is hard to judge as it shows few colors.

    Second, You can CLEARLY see that your TN panel has completely washed out colors. You can see that the yellow is MUCH brighter and lifeless, compared with the IPS panel.
    Also the blacks is visibly worse on the TN panel. It's like dark gray'ish color, while on the IPS panel it's black.

    If we look at the task bar, it is a lot more defined and visible on the NEC IPS screen, than on the TN screen. The taskbar icons as much more visible on the IPS panel than on the TN panel, where they bland easily with the yellow, DESPITE having a blue glass effect behind it, which you would think would not cause a problem.

    Look at the bottom left corner of the screen where you have the recycle bin, you don't even see it on the TN panel, while it's clearly visible on the IPS panel.

    And this is with yours "super calibrated" TN panel, using several hundred dollars color calibrator which only a hand full of people here have one.

    Like I did not even had to for myself to see these faults, they are so obvious.
    The reason why you purchase a 600 pound monitor is because you want:
    -> Uniform back light
    -> Special features like programmable Look Up Table
    -> Color processor to ensure that your colors are properly interpreted by the monitor with the defined settings
    -> Build quality, and after sale service quality
    -> Non glossy panel, but have the technology behind it, to compensate for the draw backs of doing one.
    -> True 8-bit (or more) panel, and not a 6-bit panel
    -> And in your case: the brand name (well you don't have much choice...)
     
    Last edited: 31 Oct 2011
  9. microsoftPerson

    microsoftPerson New Member

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    Wow - he didn't say anything about an "info-martial". Also, I think you're lost, you're in your monitor thread not some low-budget monitor suggestion thread where you are preaching about IPS. Of course some of what you said is relevant in reply to LennyRhis, but the rest about the OP and budget and whatnot was a clear giveaway.

    Very informative post LennyRhis, imo. I too have calibrated TN panels with excellent results (where it counts, color accuracy for print - not "colour managed kill/death ratios" ha! that was funny). Of course an IPS panel would be preferred in certain cases, including mine as a designer . . . but the difference between the two technologies is often exaggerated.
     
  10. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    @ Goodbytes & microsoftPerson - my TN is not calibrated; Goodbytes misread my post.

    "Completely washed out colours"? Lol, no. Poor viewing angle and excessive panel brightness, and very slightly washed out colours depending on the viewing angle, yes... but it's not calibrated. Look at the top right corner of the TN panel in the first picture... almost exactly the same as IPS in terms of colour vibrancy and saturation. It's only washed out to the left because of the poor viewing angle, and I notice that myself when I move around a little bit.

    I adjusted the brightness of the TN panel from 95% to 50%, bumped up the contrast a little, which made the screens look a lot more similar, and took another photo:

    [​IMG]

    Now of course IPS is better...let's get that ol' chestnut out of the way; all I'm saying is that I'm just not getting the "TN-is-trash" vibe; they are extremely similar, even more so than a picture can convey.

    I know the differences (or "faults" as you call them) are all there, but as microsoftPerson said, these differences are often exaggerated and masqueraded as faults when in fact they are just peculiarities of the TN technology. Concluding that TN is "not as good as IPS" does not automatically mean "FAIL" unless you are biased and show favouritism to IPS or other superior panel technologies. A wide gamut S-PVA monitor would trash my sRGB NECs where colour is concerned, but does that mean that my NECs are therefore trash because they don't have the same gamut? Lol, of course not... it just means that they are unsuitable for wide gamut applications, the same as TN would be unsuitable for strict colour managed applications.

    And let's not forget that when people talk about the vast, earth-shattering superiority of IPS panels, they are in fact referring to the cheap LED-backlit 6-bit panel found in the LG 23" monitor, not a professional grade 8-bit sRGB panel like in this comparison. ;)
     
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  11. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Post was edited long time ago, but I guess I close the web browser too soon, and didn't pass the request.
     
  12. czm

    czm New Member

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    Great post and puts it all in prespective.
    Atlast somebody looking at monitors without thier IPS tinted glasses on.
     
  13. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    My color spectrum (same picture you have)
    Looks better on my monitor then both your NEC and TN. I think you lowered the IPS panel to prove your point, or something is wrong with your NEC, or your camera limits the NEC performance, as it can't display all the colors.

    Then again, I did it on my laptop, as it's right here, and actually my laptop screen looks very close to my IPS panel.. It's shame that 99.999% content displayed on it appears completely false, in term of colors. Such picture doesn't say anything, is my point. (Of course, I played with Nvidia Control Panel on my laptop, and brightness level to try and get better calibration, but that only "solved" the problem for this particular picture.. the desktop environment and everything else is wrong).

    Beside it's not I am coming out of nowhere.. people on this very same forum, who had TN panel, some not even old ones, tried an IPS panel, and they see a large significant difference.

    And I would like restate my point AGAIN:
    -> I never said that IPS/PVA panel is the only way to go.
    -> I already suggested to get TN panels, for those you seek speed (gaming), or on a limited budget.

    Assuming monitor performance is not critical.
    Would you buy a descent IPS panel for 250$ (let's say, close to your NEC), Or that very same Packard Bell monitor on your desk for 250$, or even if it was 240$. Would you?
    I HIGHLY doubt you will. THAT's what is my point. Why would you buy a TN panel, even a high end one, when for the same price, or really close, you get, based on reviews, a better monitor in every aspect, for the same price. EVEN if let's say, just for the same of example, that the IPS panel has, out of the box, 10% better colors. I still would, anyone would (assuming they know, of course).


    I am not being bias (well try not to be), but I am not being stupid either.
     
    Last edited: 31 Oct 2011
  14. wyx087

    wyx087 Homeworld 3 is happening!!

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    well, i did side by side comparison between my U2711 8-bit IPS to my T240 6-bit TN, the difference was massive. TN was gray, washed out when i try to get it to display similar brightness. TN's look good on displays, but at comfortable brightness levels, they are very, very bad.

    yes, they are from different time period. but considering two was only 2 years apart (not long in monitor years), and was top of the line on its release.
     
  15. 3lusive

    3lusive Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I highly doubt he would have done that. People dont care about being biased to one technology; they just want a description of the truth. If TN now have decent colour reproduction, so be it? They still have poor viewing angles (which would be apparent if he took a picture from an off-angle), but again if you sit directly in front of the screen it is a minor issue because the shift is so slight (although for colour critical work this would be completely unacceptable, however).

    I think its because you base your judgement about TN displays on really old TN technology that were admittedly tripe - modern ones do not suck anywhere near what you think they do.

    Granted, I believe for most people IPS displays are better than TN, because of the much better viewing angles, build quality and adjustable stand, and the fact that large resolution displays are typically IPS or PVA. You dont really have a choice as a consumer but to buy IPS screens if you want a large resolution (sometimes have to buy wide gamut too).

    I do believe, however, that modern TNs have comparable colour reproduction, other than the vertical colour shift. I would go as far to say that 6bit +FRC is extremely close to 8bit on modern displays - there is a post on Hardforum which explains this very nicely and when I get round to finding it I will post it here. Some people may say something like 'whats the point in decent colour if the shift constantly ruins it', but the point is many wont notice it enough to warrant the fuss. I also think modern TNs have better contrast and black depth than many IPS displays, regardless of calibration. Tftcentral mention this when they say TN black depth has improved somewhat and is generally very good on modern screens, even competing with some VA matrices and normally surpassing IPS based screens.

    It seems that only on this forum is there a worshipping of IPS displays which I just dont see on other forums, especially on Hardforum or Anandtech. They have people that are much more critical of IPS technology, often saying that displays which use it are hampered by poor contrast, aggressive AG coating, and poor viewing angles because of the IPS glow on blacks. I dont necessarily agree with those criticisms outright - the viewing angles are still much better than TN for the most part - but it isnt all rose-tinted worship that is often found on here.

    Next year, however, I will be upgrading to two 2560 x 1440 or 2560 x 1600 displays, which will probably be IPS (or maybe even Samsungs new IPS competitor PLS), but I wont be doing so for the 'better' colours; ill be doing so for the resolution primarily. One of them may be the U2711, which is a wide gamut display and is popular on this forum, but I, and most people, have zero need for a wide gamut display seeing as I dont do professional colour critical work - 99.9% of the content on my screen is in sRGB, so why would I pay to have unnatural oversaturated colours? Well its because I would be willing to put up with it for the increased resolution, but if they made a sRGB 2560x1440 display I would buy that instead. On this forum, however, the wide gamut feature is masqueraded as a selling point, when its purely a professional tool and its in most peoples interest to not have one because of the colour management issues it brings (the fact that sRGB content will be wrong outside of colour aware applications).

    Anyway, I do believe IPS are still better than TN for most people, and represent a much better package for the consumer overall (because of build quality, stand, inputs, and viewing angles), especially when a display like the LG IPS231P is going for £150, its still better than most TN's at that price point and is a reason why I suggest people should buy it, but I cant help but think that the benefits of IPS tech is overblown a considerable amount on this forum.
     
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  16. smc8788

    smc8788 ...at least I have chicken

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    ^ You know the U2711 has an sRGB mode, right?

    Alternatively, you could spend less than 10% of the cost you will spend on those two monitors on a decent colorimeter to make full use of their capabilities ;)
     
  17. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Yup... glossy based TN panels, and LED back light have better blacks, as the back light is not directly on the back of the LCD panel. Same hold true on IPS and VA panels that uses LED's to illuminate itself.

    TN are the first one to implement white LED back light. So naturally comments like that will appear. I am not saying that TFTCentral is wrong, but that is not the whole story, something you will notice on newer reviews of IPS panels with white LED backlight from the site.

    Hardforum has a lot of crap said.
    Last i check, Anandtech likes IPS panel very much. The difference is that they consider PRICE, as a good compromise for TN limitations. This is fine, but this forum is a computer enthusiasts forum, specifically people that seek for the best computer experience.

    Ah yes, good old early LG panel production problem. (U2410 A00).
    I don't have this issue on colors. But it is true on blacks, that is an IPS panel downsides indeed on pure black. But most of our content isn't black or near that, so it's not a real issue here. To solve this problem, would be to jump to a polarized grid PVA panel (assuming you don't want to replace it with another problem (ie: view angle limitation)). But no one here is ready (except for a few), afford a several thousand dollar monitor (remember, we don't want any PVA panel), for a 22-24inch.

    The aggressive coating is not an IPS panel feature, it just mainly LG that puts it. But now they are reducing it on newer panels, which we call all see on the Dell U2312, U2412, U2212, as an example, among many other panels, and LG own panels.

    Beside this isn't a real issue. As it's not visible either then on white, and your noise is nearly touching the screen, and you move at the same time to see it, at a normal desk distance, even if you try, you don't see it.

    IPS panel have great contrast... I don't know what you are talking about. Please note, that I am ignoring budget IPS, PVA and cPVA panels (also TN for the other way). As there is a difference between "IPS panel", and "IPS panel to say IPS on the box". As I mentioned there are ALWAYS monitor that under-perform greatly from what is expected and mentioned. But doesn't mean that they are horrible *VA panels and IPS panels, that they are ALL like that.

    There is no miracle monitor technology. You can spend millions on a 24inch monitors, and it will still have downsides.

    No one said this. Anything in life has downsides. I am sure some people are complaining on how they want orange and yellow polka dot laptop, as it helps them concentrate... hey no problem with me.

    It's not over-saturated, as it's Adobe RGB profile applied to a wide gamut monitor, not: Adobe RGB attempted to be put on a non-wide gamut monitor, or store shelf settings.
    It's a hint saturated over sRGB (I am not aiming at your pro's, where #FF3131 and #FF3133 is problematic, and is totally understandable for your work).

    I agree that TN panels got better... but I am not going to start searching all my 2008-2009 post and correct myself. And the difference in the last gen high end TN panel isn't something drastic either. It's marginally better. Also, if you get to know me, I follow the following policy:
    Monitor manufacture doesn't send their monitor to reviewers = they are hiding something, wtv it is. I assume the worst.

    That is like a game company, decide to release it's game, and not send it to any review site. Would you buy it? Hey it could be a game better and more polished than Call of Duty or something. You would be still reluctant to buy it. Why would Activation release their games to reviewer, including previous versions, but does not for this game... hmmmm... Something is fishy here.
     
  18. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    But you haven't seen my NEC, only a photo of it. Besides, the photo isn't supposed to show how good the NEC is, nor can it (I'm repeating myself here...lol); it's just a very basic comparison to show that TN and IPS are in fact very similar side-by-side despite what is thrown around on this forum as "hard fact."

    And no hard feelings btw Goodbytes. I respect you and acknowledge that you know a lot about monitors, but please bear in mind that not everybody thinks like you and wants what you want - people are free to choose more washed out colours if they want the best response times etc. It's their choice, despite any guide they might read. You are a very firm believer that cheap IPS monitors should always be chosen over TN monitors of the same price, but I disagree - people shouldn't be criticized if they want to buy TN, even though we know it is an inferior technology in many ways.

    And be clear that I'm not pushing people one way or another - IPS or TN - so we can forget about "lowering the quality of the IPS panel" nonsense. ;) I think that what 3lusive posted is very fair and accurate. :thumb:
     
  19. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Oink!

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    Actually the U2711 uses a wide gamut panel which is true 10-bit. It is therefore superior to what my NECs have and far, far superior to a 6-bit TN. ;)

    Let me reiterate - the common basis for comparison on this forum is the 6-bit IPS panel on the LG 23" IPS monitor, which is vastly different to the wide gamut panels on the U2711 and other pro grade monitors. Nobody is arguing that a cheap TN panel looks anything like as good as the U2711, LOL. :D
     
  20. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    :duh: This is what I am saying! I always said that. The only reason why IPS got a lot of attention on this forum, is that people (and they say it) where seeking better colors, better quality product, easy setup, wide view angle, over maximum performance. This increased lately even more, as prices of popular (descent ones for non-pro's) IPS monitors dropped to a competing price. Mixed with the fact that since about the couple of years, IPS panels are really fast COMPARED TO BEFORE, where now, you can comfortably play any games, and watch fast action movies, without seeing a blurry mess, even for picky ones, breaking the old saying that "IPS panels aren't for games or fast action movies". Now, it's STILL not there as high end TN panels, but it's getting there (so not there for hardcore gamers, especially in the FPS genre).

    And to show that this was well the case... no one decided to return or express their dissatisfaction in their purchase. No! Instead they go on threads and express their love from their monitor purchase, and highly recommends it (this is rare... usually people only complains of issues, and when something is good, there is no comment on it... so I can only guess that their purchase fitted their needs perfectly, and possibly surpassed their expectation). No one said any FACTS, only opinions.
    And again, not all IPS panels are great, not all PVA panels are great either. The same for TN panels, some low end TN panels, are an insult to humanity (like REALLY, they are bad... like any shades of normal to light grays are rounded to white, and draker shades are rounded to black, and the monitor is all blue'ish like if you set the monitor to "cool" color profile, but it's already on "warm", and the other modes is just laughable. Or the reverse... where everything is deep yellow on "cool", and the other modes (normal and warm) are laughable. And I can go on. Any one where would think that the monitor is broken.. but nope... I was forced to sale them when I worked at retail... obviously I was pushing for others. Lucky for the world, since the couple of years, they have started to disappear (thank you), and better one are made. Same for IPS panels, I did encounter IPS monitors, which you make think they are TN panels, and that is for view angle and sharpness, and colors follows a policy of "as long as red is somewhat red, blue somewhat blue, green somewhat green, it's all good".
    What annoys me is that MONEY is invested.. they are paying engineers, to instead making a quality product or discover new ways to reduce production cost of high end models, it's all spent for them to make the most inexpensive version of a product using a specified technology.

    If a person comes and ask for a gaming monitor, as that person seek for no ghosting, 0 input lag (well the least amount possible, of course) Or limited budget. Well, OBVIOUSLY a TN panel is what I suggest. Suggesting anything else would be wrong. But so far, this wasn't the case very much on this forum.

    Every time an IPS panel is suggested by anyone, people say "If you can extend your budget", and this is on a post that already got TN panel suggestions, or will have shortly after.

    So now you know why IPS panel gain a lot of momentum on this forum... But I think that this will switch as soon as all of our FPS players on this forum seek in changing their monitor.
     
    Last edited: 31 Oct 2011
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