1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Photos Latest Purchases Thread: v2.0

Discussion in 'General' started by RTT, 29 Oct 2007.

  1. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

    Joined:
    11 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    7,732
    Likes Received:
    277
    not sure why this would be an issue tbh. I'm a PC-er thru and thru, but Apple portables (particularly laptops) are the class of the field, been using a MacBook Pro since 2011, never had reason to switch.

    As configured it's about $200-300 more than the equivalent MSI (the closest thing with matching specs I could find after a cursory google) and the MSI has a smaller, objectively worse screen. 10% is not an unreasonable price premium for a laptop at this end of the spectrum. The issue is when people compare base model laptops, where Apple does overcharge significantly compared to the (much wider) competition.
     
  2. perplekks45

    perplekks45 LIKE AN ANIMAL!

    Joined:
    9 May 2004
    Posts:
    6,082
    Likes Received:
    513
    A new tattoo.
     
    adidan likes this.
  3. yuusou

    yuusou Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    5 Nov 2006
    Posts:
    2,158
    Likes Received:
    343
    The XPS 15 w/ Win10Pro, with the i9-9980HK, 64GB RAM, 2TB NVMe, 1650 4GB and 4K display comes at 3300 dollars.
    The equivalent Mac 16, same CPU, same RAM, same storage, 5500M 4GB and a 3072‑by‑1920px display comes at 4200 dollars.
    This is all pre-tax.

    I feel this is a fair apples to apples (pun intended) comparison.
     
  4. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    12,450
    Likes Received:
    864
    For this spec it's around £1000 more than the equivalent XPS15, but it's not about the hardware. I have an XPS15 now and love the hardware.

    MacOS is why, as for a specific work reason it allows me to trade out two windows laptops (an XPS15 and a Lenovo TPY 370) for one Mac, which is a huge boon. As icing on the cake, I've been doing more and more "real" things on my iPad Pro and a more seamless integration/transition between this and the real computer would be valued. And generally speaking, a lot of people who are technically inclined and that I trust have suggested for my uses, I'd get on better with a Mac after the initial learning curve.
     
  5. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

    Joined:
    11 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    7,732
    Likes Received:
    277
    I picked what I did because that's what @Mister_Tad bought. Incidentally I see the XPS at 3500 list price.

    The MacBook still mugs it, and just about every other equivalently-specced winbook on battery life (>50% more than the XPS). It has a 16:10 vs 16:9 screen if that's what you prefer (I and many others do). So if I wanted these CPU+RAM+SSD+GPU specs but with a ~10hr battery life and 16:10, suddenly the MacBook isn't just worth the extra cash, it's the only game in town.

    You are paying a premium for the brand to be sure, but it's rarely as egregious as people make it out to be. There's always some give and take across the many factors that go into a purchase like this...
     
  6. Byron C

    Byron C Probably isn't Hitler, but definitely a muppet

    Joined:
    12 Apr 2002
    Posts:
    5,849
    Likes Received:
    885
    $1000 for a monitor stand? $400 for wheels on a case? Sounds pretty egregious to me...

    FWIW... Macbooks used to have great build quality and were pretty long-lived, in general. Until about 2015/2016 when it all started to go down the toilet in the quest for thinner, lighter, and quieter. Have you seen how much copper they use for heatsinks these days? The only way they can get away with that is by running the chips at 10-15W or less while letting them thermally throttle. Put even a mildly intensive workload on a Macbook and it'll stress the hell out of it.
     
    liratheal likes this.
  7. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

    Joined:
    20 Nov 2005
    Posts:
    11,034
    Likes Received:
    881
    I love how Mac laptops look.

    I cannot, however, abide by the ways and means that Apple use to achieve that look. I don't want a kneecapped set of hardware for the sake of slim and light - But that is coming from someone with a nearly 3 kilo laptop as their daily driver. So maybe I'm just tweaked.

    It's less of a problem since they switched to Intel, but I also hate how "Do it my way or not at all" Apple software is. I have an iPhone for work and I can't change the default browser because Apple says so. That said, I've had a few PPC based Macs in my time (Three, to be exact), and one Intel. The look and design is top notch, no doubt, but the crippled hardware and the exorbitant price is just too much for me to be willing to buy one anymore.

    The Mac Pro being ~$50,000 to top out is hilarious. I can't imagine what they're putting in there for fifty thousand dollars. It better be gold plated hookers.

    Eh. It's not like anyone is forcing me to use a Mac so I don't really give a **** anymore.

    Although I am being forced to use this POS iPhone, which does not amuse me.
     
  8. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    4 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    13,184
    Likes Received:
    2,281
    I've seen numerous sites with the OMGSOSPENSIVE take, and they all seem to either completely ignore or quietly bury the fact that it's $52,000-ish... if you spec it with 12 128GB DDR4 memory modules. So that's, what, at least $18-20k in RAM alone, there.

    In fact, let's spec it up. So, only the tower is available. Default price: £5,499. Which, yes, is expensive.

    First option: upgrade to the Intel Xeon W 2.5GHz 28-core chip, which is probably this one judging by the quoted specs. That's an extra £6,300 - which is less than Scan would charge me to buy the chip myself, at £7,429.99. (Although, obviously, if I were upgrading it myself I could sell off the old chip to recoup some cash.)

    Second option: 1.5TB of DDR4 ECC RAM, at £22,500. Doesn't say what speed, so let's go with this 2666MHz stuff from Scan again at £1,700.48 a stick - 12 sticks makes £20,405.76. Either Apple's using better stuff or there's a 10 percent markup there. Moving on.

    Third option: two Radeon Pro Vega II Duo with 2x 32GB HBM2 memory each (so that's 64GB physical memory per card, 128GB total), £9,720. I can't actually price that up, 'cos it's currently exclusive to Apple - but let's go ahead and assume it's going to cost somewhere in the region of the £6k Nvidia Quadro RTX 8000 with 48GB GDDR6. Depending on which side of that region, Apple could be over or undercharging here - let's call it a wash.

    Fourth option: 4TB SSD. There's an 8TB option "coming soon," but right now 4TB is the best I can do, at £1,260. That could cost anything from £450 to £1,200 depending on what kind of 4TB SSD we're talking.

    Fifth option: Apple Afterburner video-editing copper card, £1,800. There isn't really anything equivalent to it in the IBM Compatible space, to my knowledge, so I can't really do a comparison here.

    Sixth option: Wheels, £360. Having a laugh, in'tcha?

    Seventh option: Magic Mouse 2 and Magic TrackPad: £149. Yeah, Apple accessories are expensive, no surprise there.

    That's it for hardware - the only remaining options are for Final Cut Pro X and/or Logic Pro X. Final cost: £47,439. But that's with a £7,500-ish CPU upgrade, £20,400-ish of RAM, anything up to £12k of GPUs *plus* an accelerator which we'll assume is fairly priced at £1,800... Take those off (and yes, I'm still ignoring the "sell the hardware you've removed to recoup some money" aspect, the calculation of which is left as an exercise for the reader) and you're back down to £5,739.

    Does Apple mark up its hardware? Absolutely. Is £47,000 for the top-end Mac Pro ridiculous? Not given that buying the parts to build an equivalent system yourself would set you back... Well, the third-party parts above are £42k-ish alone before we've even added a power supply, case, motherboard, operating system...

    But £360 for the wheels can get in the chuffin' sea.
     
  9. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

    Joined:
    11 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    7,732
    Likes Received:
    277

    Jesus, what is it with the internet and reading comprehension? This exchange began with and was limited to a discussion of Apple laptops not being the overpriced evil they're usually described as. Now we're here at XDR displays which, again like the MacBooks, are the only game in town for a specific combination of features.
     
  10. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    12,450
    Likes Received:
    864
    Is it kneecapped though? A top spec MBP 16 touts a 9980HK, 64GB RAM, an 8GB 5500M and a faintly ridiculous 8TB SSD - doubling the RAM and quadrupling the storage of a maxxed out XPS15. Granted you can get more grunt in a 2" thick "desktop replacement", but for laptops one may actually want on their lap, it's competitive in hardware (if not price)

    IMO the $50k pricetag is being used by media outlets just for the sake of grabbing headlines.
    What it really is, is a $6k machine that you can just so happen to spec to a stratospheric level. There's undoubtedly an Apple tax involved, but if you put 12x 128GB 2933MHz ECC DDR4 DIMMs in any machine you're going to add $20k+ to the cost.

    EDIT: Also what @Gareth Halfacree said.
     
  11. stonedsurd

    stonedsurd Is a cackling Yuletide Belgian

    Joined:
    11 Mar 2009
    Posts:
    7,732
    Likes Received:
    277
    This is the bit that everyone fixates on -- except it's a low-effort, low-volume, high-margin part that few people are going to spring for, and the ones that do will pad out Apple's bottom line nicely.

    Ditto the XDR Display -- 99% of pro users (you know, the type that need and can afford the screen in the first place) have their own multi-monitor setups and will pay the 5200 USD and move on with their lives.
     
  12. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    12,450
    Likes Received:
    864
    The marketing for this was a train wreck though.
    Sell it as a $6k monitor and offer a screen-only option to save $1k and goodbye internet furore.
     
  13. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

    Joined:
    20 Nov 2005
    Posts:
    11,034
    Likes Received:
    881
    That's why I used that handy little ~ and didn't also use the 52 number quoted by <insert news site>.

    I'm not saying aspects of the cost aren't justified (Although, I must admit, holding ~6TB of RAM yesterday makes 1.5TB sound kind of paltry..), it's that the entire Apple range is, IMO, wildly more expensive than it deserves. There seems to be this mentality within Apple that they are innovators and only they can do X, Y, Z, when really that's just not the case. The Apple culture irks me, although I don't tend to kick around with Apple people so it's not really a concern for me these days.

    I feel like that gif that floats around with "is it though?" whenever an Apple conversation is had..

    Don't recall mentioning the screen, as it happens.

    Also recall talking about the laptops first and foremost..

    I'll be the first to admit that many of my gripes with Apple hardware can be leveled at just about any slim laptop made by any manufacturer these days - And that a lot of my distaste for Apple products comes from older days when Apple underclocked the **** out of everything in the name of design (Something that everyone does now that everyone is on the ultra slim bender).

    I'll also be the first to admit that my use-case for a Zbook is somewhat irregular - Although I am sat at a table with 12-15 other blokes using basically the same laptop. It's really not that bad on the lap. Trackpad sucks dong, though.
     
  14. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    4 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    13,184
    Likes Received:
    2,281
    So, out of the above, which aspect isn't justified? Apart from the wheels, I'll give you the wheels. Apple appears to be charging roughly market prices, give or take, for the upgrades, and a homebrew build to the same specification (or as close as you can get without the Apple exclusive parts) would, by my calculation, come out within roughly ten percent of what Apple's charging for a pre-built system. And you wouldn't get wheels. Nor would it look like a cheese grater, and you can't tell me that's not worth a ten percent premium right there...

    (Disclaimer: I wouldn't buy an Apple machine at a 50% discount, never mind a 10% premium, after the joys I had with my MacBook Air. Biggest flamin' mistake I ever made, buying that.)
     
  15. Zoon

    Zoon Hunting Wabbits since the 80s

    Joined:
    12 Mar 2001
    Posts:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    514
    I’m just jelly you guys have the spare cash to even consider these kinds of purchasing decision as normal.

    My kid has had his Samsung Tab for five years and he’s still using it despite the fact he stood on the flipping screen two years ago and luckily only put one crack in it which the screen protector mostly stopped from spreading.

    I wanted to get him something newer and I’m paying for another cracked screen device due to budget constraints!! In fairness, it’s an Air 2nd Gen, and the crack/chip is on the edge where you won’t notice it in a case, and in exchange for this I’m getting it at half the second hand value. But still!

    Enjoy your gadgets peeps no matter how hipster and wrong objectively it may be :p
     
  16. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

    Joined:
    20 Nov 2005
    Posts:
    11,034
    Likes Received:
    881
    I genuinely don't believe that Apple are getting charged as much as they would have their customers believe for the parts they put in their kit. Whether it's this particular piece of hardware, or any hardware they sell. Their profit margins are exorbitant and I'm flabbergasted that people still defend their extremely high pricing schemes.

    I don't give a **** about the wheels. I'm sure I've spent more on more frivolous addons to something. Nothing springs to mind right now, but I must have at some point in my life. I'd have more money if not.

    I'd not class myself as being in the realm of considering any of these things for purchase :p

    I buy my hardware second hand more often than not!
     
  17. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    4 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    13,184
    Likes Received:
    2,281
    Err... No system builder is. Otherwise none of 'em would make a profit. However, you would be charged those prices - I even linked, where possible, to where you can buy 'em for the prices quoted.

    Does Apple make a profit on the hardware it sells? Yes.
    Does Dell make a profit on the hardware it sells? Also yes.
    Does Lenovo make a profit on the hardware it sells? Still yes.
    Does Scan make a profit on the hardware it sells? Yeppers.

    That's capitalism for you. And under capitalism, it would cost you within a clear 10 percent to buy the parts to build your own FrankenMac Pro than to buy the real thing from Apple.

    Prove me wrong: Spec a system with specifications equivalent to the Mac Pro - you can leave the Afterburner out, unless you find a suitable non-Apple equivalent - and show me that it's dramatically cheaper.
     
  18. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Super Moderator Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    12,450
    Likes Received:
    864
    But your kid isn't using said tablet to make money (or maybe he is, in which case, good effort).

    It's a different matter when you're talking about a tool vs a toy.
     
    Weekly_Estimate likes this.
  19. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

    Joined:
    20 Nov 2005
    Posts:
    11,034
    Likes Received:
    881
    I don't recall saying no system builder makes a profit?

    I don't even recall saying I could build a machine specced the same as the Mac Pro with all the trimmings for significantly less than submitting the rectum to Apple's cash remover.

    But how many of them would make the same kind of profit Apple has (IE: How many of them would have ~$200bn in Panama) with the same user base that Apple has?

    Arguably a lot of that bank-cash of Apple's is going to be down to the i-devices and their disturbing popularity in the last decade or two, but I sincerely doubt they'd keep making their desktop/laptop range at a loss or marginal profit when they, as a business, seem to be happy making decisions about how people will use their hardware (Removing the headphone jack and then having the balls to charge for an accessory to put it back in as a well known example).

    Apple's business is impressive from an observational standpoint, but it doesn't make it unobjectionable. They charge a premium for a product that is objectively the same as any other on very little basis other than "Apple is cool" as far as I can tell. If they were guaranteed to work for longer, work better, or any other measurable number I could see the justification. But, in my experience of owning and supporting them, they are no less trouble prone than any other device. It seems like a roll of the dice whether you get a machine that lasts as long as you expect or a device that would be better used as a drinks coaster. Which, for the markup, is unacceptable IMO.

    As for building a hackintosh/frankenmac, I think the entire scene is utterly stupid. Just buy a second hand Mac if you want a cheaper Mac.
     
  20. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    4 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    13,184
    Likes Received:
    2,281
    I inferred that from your incredulous tone here:
    Literally no system builder is paying retail prices for the parts from which they build their system. Intel sells stuff to system builders at more than it costs to make it, making a profit; the system builders sell the same stuff to you at more than they paid Intel, making a profit. Capitalism. Apple is no different, and while Apple's profit margins may be higher than most in aggregate, they do not appear to be charging over the odds for the Mac Pro. At least, by no more than ten percent - which is within the same margin of any system builder compared to putting something together from parts yourself.
    Not a Hackintosh, literally just a computer of equivalent specs. Apple's making an obscene profit, right, so it should be easy for you to slap together a PC Part Picker list for a 28-core Xeon-powered tower with 1.5TB of DDR4 ECC RAM, four GPUs with 128GB HBM2 physical memory, an accelerator card, 4TB of SSD storage, a decent keyboard, mouse, trackpad, and wheels for considerably less. No?

    If you're not saying that Apple's pricing for the Mac Pro is extortionate, then I don't understand what you mean by this:
    'cos the answer to "what they're putting in there for fifty thousand dollars" appears to be, as per my detailed post upthread, "about fifty thousand dollars worth of hardware at retail pricing, give or take."
     

Share This Page