Motivations are irrelevent. What counts is actions. As for the notion that freedom requires all the information, that's not true Nexxo. Everyone in life makes the best choices they can with the information they have to go on, that's part of our imperfection, but it's the way things are. Freedom does not require all the information, since having all the information available on all topics (despite being impossible) would naturally breach the right to privacy of many a person which in itself breaches their freedom of choice. It doesn't matter what owning guns is about, although I think you're generalising and displaying an overall dislike for guns anyway. What matters is what the right to own guns. The idea that having rules created by those in power would prevent abuses of the powerless, where-as the right to live as one chooses would somehow endanger the powerless is baffling to me. You know as well as I do that the rules are created by an elite in most countries - the powerless are not protected by these rules, they are immorally bound by them and made yet more powerless. Since a citizenry with firearms is more powerfull than a citizenry without firearms (I don't care how repugnant you find that notion, it's true - get used to it). Yes, they are. If you're a member of an independant community, in order to protect your community from other communities (or even full countries) at anything like a competitive level you need firearms (or any modern weaponry). A community can be truly independant if it feeds itself, cares for itself, and protects itself. The latter of those three is illegal though. Self-protection and self-preservation is no longer legal. Ok well if every single person who owns a gun is automatically defining themselves as having an adversarial relationship with society then I'm giving up here, because that's an irrational generalisation which I think is beneath your usual high level of argument, and signals to me that we've reached a pointless level of discussion. I'll see you in the next one . edit: And, regardles - thanks for the debate everyone, it's been a good one mostly - nice to get a good bit of banter goin' on once in a while.