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Those wacky creationists....

Discussion in 'General' started by DreamTheEndless, 22 Nov 2005.

  1. DivineSin

    DivineSin What's a Dremel?

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    Well it looks like i made another statement that was one of the dumbest things ever said on this site, two in a single day. yay! :rolleyes:

    You say that fundamentalists are the only ones that make christianity bad, can you tell me a single thing christianity has done for people? Faith in god does not give someone strength, no matter how hard you want to believe it does.

    Inquisition And Crusades (Hate Crimes)
    Masturbation being a sin.
    Being gay being a sin. (Hate Crimes)
    Genital Mutilation.
    Klu Klux Klan. (Hate Crimes)
    Denouncing all other Religions. (Hate Crimes)
    Holding back scientific discoveries

    And thats just a few of the things i could take off the top of my head. Maybe its because the lot of you live in europe, but in america most of these things are common. I see mothers dragging children to tharapists because they thing somethings wrong with them. I see fathers beating and killing children because they think there gay. I see religion forced on kids by making them attend church every single weekend. All it is is brainwashing, and i'll still stand by my statement that christianity hasnt done a single good thing for -anyone-.
     
  2. Techno-Dann

    Techno-Dann Disgruntled kumquat

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    Are you at all familiar with the methods of Alcoholics Anonymous, DivineSin? They're a Christian group, and their method is very heavily bible based.

    They've also got one of the highest success rates of any addiction-breaking program in existance. More than 80% of graduates do not relapse. Every single one of those people is someone that has profited from Christianity.
     
  3. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    Religion would be great if there were only one. But as soon as you get two they argue, both claim they're the 'true' faith, neither can prove it, so it comes to blows.

    It seems the greater your personal religious faith, the more fundamentalist your mentality, the more bigoted you are against all other religions.

    Only the backsliders are worth saving.
     
  4. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    I would like to direct your attention to the following organizations, all religion-based and providing goods and services to the community through vounteering and charitable donations:

    Salvation Army
    Habitat for Humanity
    Star of Hope Mission (Houston, TX)

    Also, please reference the following people:
    Mother Theresa
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    And that's just the tip of the iceburg.

    Christianity has its share of skeletons in the closet, but no more really than any other organization in the world, religious or otherwise. It's not the religion you have to worry about, it's the people inside the religion that lose sight of the bigger idea and start focusing on the fundamentalist aspects.

    -monkey
     
  5. GiGo

    GiGo was once a nerd.....

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    Who knows how we were created!?

    One of lifes mysteries. MY theory is that we will never know! Our minds werent made to comprehend how or who or what and when we were created. I sometimes think that nothing is real, as we have no idea of any other life forms in the universe, im going to stop here as I could be typing for a while and it goes round and round in circles.

    I've had many a long conversations (normally when we were drunk a couple of years ago) about all this.

    Creationists are twats! <<< sorry for bad language.

    Religion causes so much harm in this world, we should ban the lot!

    Regards
    GiGo
     
  6. DivineSin

    DivineSin What's a Dremel?

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    Excuse me, but i meant what does christianity do for people. These organizations may be backed by christian people but they would be there with or without a religion(And there are countless organizations that do the same thing, without being backed by christians), and just because they believe in god doesnt mean christianity is helping people, its -those- peoples good hearts that are helping people. However, most of the things i stated were backed by the church, or done in the name of god.

    As far as i'm concerned, unless the hundreds of thousands of christians who represent there religion are fixed of there racism, hate crimes, and denouncing of everything non-christian, they will still represent such a horrible brain washing religion with a horrid black past. Just my opinion of course. I have nothing against someone who believes in it, if you want to follow a path of god then you go ahead and do it.
     
  7. dom_

    dom_ --->

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    will you please stop with the moronic posts with no factual basis.
     
  8. acron^

    acron^ ePeen++;

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    DivineSin, what the hell are you talking about?

    Modern Christianity is one of the tamest religions out there. As has been stated so many times, you cannot bash Christians when a splinter group of fundamentalists takes one particular aspect of the Bible's teaching and attempts to enforce it. Have you ever actually bothered to read a Bible? If not, the general consensus is to treat others as you yourself would expect to be treated. If you go around judging people as you have demonstrated, you too, my friend, shall be judged.

    Real followers of the Christian faith do not commit hate crimes, do not practice or promote racism and certainly do not go around denouncing other people's faiths.

    I put it to you, DivineSin, that you are the only racist here.
     
  9. dom_

    dom_ --->

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    you sure you mean racist? i just think he likes to go against the norm for attention/arguements. hence im not discussing it.
    check out his comments on paedophiles.
     
  10. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    You are joking? You've forgotten the Irish Catholics v Irish Protestants grudge match? Or Croats (predominantly Catholic Christians) against Serbs (Orthodox Christians) causing the breakup of Yugoslavia? I mean, that's Christian killing Christian. Very holy. :sigh:
     
  11. Fly

    Fly inter arma silent leges

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    I can hear the thead explosion timebomb ticking.
     
  12. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    I'm starting to get the same feeling.

    -monkey
     
  13. Malvolio

    Malvolio .

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    Yeah, you're kidding, right? You are talking about an organization that doesn't release its success rates to the public, and yet you magically come up with an 80% success rate? I would like to see proof sir.

    The AA uses a 12 step program targeted at getting rid of your own self-esteem and thrusting you into a religion, if you want to or not. People are sentenced to this or they will lose their job, be jailed, or fined by courts; even some employers and license agencies make going to AA compulsory. This is against something that most americans kinda live by: the constitution. In the USA, you can't mandate religion. The AA is a religion.

    AA states that alcoholism is a disease, and that there is only one way to treat it: give yourself over to god and denounce any power you have over your life, making you into a sheep in the service of god. Remember: a disease is a real thing that you can not just get over by will power alone. And even if alcholism is a disease, why would you perscribe the same exact method to every single person that has it? Thats insanity and just stupidity.

    Now, although the AA doesn't actually release any true figures of their actual success rates, the best document that has been obtained in this regard is of an internal survey, which is done every three years. Unfortunately this one is from 1989. But remember: that is the best that actual investigators were able to find, the AA refuses to release any real figures.

    Anyway, in AA's own words: about half those that come to AA leave within three months. That throws the 80% figure right out, but it gets better. After 12 months, AA's own internal survey of success rates states: an average of 5% of people who enter the program, after a 12 month period, actually are successful at "curing" their problem.

    And what if somebody doesn't go into AA? What is that success rate?

    5%

    Research has proven that the success rate is the exact same with or without treatment. It makes absolutely no difference. Treatment makes you feel slightly better, thats all it does.

    Yeah, you're right, the AA does help people; it forces them into religion they don't want to go because they were forced to by their own government/employer/license agency.
     
  14. I'm_Not_A_Monster

    I'm_Not_A_Monster Hey, eat this...

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    wasn't fundamentalism either, it was people. people can do anything with the right (or wrong) ideas in their head. do you think those people would have blown themselves up if they weren't brainwashed by fundamentalists? no. they would be perfectly ordinary people without extreme ideals.

    instead of religions that tell you fight and die for some supposedly "supreme being" (if it was "supreme" it wouldn't need you to fight for it) why don't we focus on helping others instead of selling them a god?
     
  15. J-Pepper

    J-Pepper Minimodder

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    I'm an agnostic... I don't believe in God, but i'm not saying that I won't believe that one never existed either. (basically, I don't know if a god exists or not! and neither does anyone else in the world if I was being a real pendant, but I disgress)

    But the only problem I have with religion is the way that they tru to either 'thrust' it upon you or try to 'recruit' people to their 'cause'.

    Who cares if you believe in Christianity, Hinduism or The Divine Donkey of Holyness... but don't force me or anyone else who doesn't believe to accept that your belief is the 'only' one, the 'right(eous)' one and that if you don't you are a 'sinner' and will go to purgatory or hell and each other religions equivalent.

    Apart from that, I have no problem with religion...

    That's why I view creationists with disgust... not only do they throw out years and years of proven and accepted experimental science, but they try to preach (yea, and I do mean Preach rather than Teach) it to the young impressionable minds that are our future.

    tbh.. i find that very, very wrong
     
  16. NaThRo

    NaThRo What's a Dremel?

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    You bag Creationists for believing something you find far fetched?

    Care of All About the Journey: Origin of the Universe

    The Big Bang Theory

    Evolutionary Theory

    How can nothing explode?
    Where did all that matter and energy come from?
    What caused its release?
    How did this explosion of everything (from nothing) order itself?
    How can simplicity become complexity?
    Where did the chemical elements come from?
    Where did the mathematical laws and physical properties come from?
    How do we explain the design, complexity and fine-tuning inherent in spiral galaxies, solar systems, and stars?

    How did life come from a rock?
    How did a bird come from a lizard?
    Why don't we see birds come from lizards today?
    Why are there no transitional fossils in our museums today?
    Why have we never observed beneficial mutations?
    Where did the information code in DNA come from?
    Where did the language convention that interprets DNA come from?
    How can we explain the random development of the human eye, reproductive system, digestive tract, brain, heart and lungs?
    What about the subconscious mind?
    What about love, morality, ethics, and emotions?
    Can these things really evolve gradually and randomly over time?
     
  17. Malvolio

    Malvolio .

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    Wow, umm, NaThRo, these have all been answered, but until Nexxo comes along, I'll try my best:

    How can nothing explode?
    We can't explain that, but nobody's arguing that.

    Where did all that matter and energy come from?
    See above.

    What caused its release?
    What caused me to type "giggle fish" ? Randomidity?

    How did this explosion of everything (from nothing) order itself?
    It is a simple set of rules that somehow came to be. If there was a creator, this is where he would step in and create these rules. This creator wasn't perfect though (hence why NOTHING IS PERFECT). One question though: where did this creator come from?!?

    How can simplicity become complexity?
    Easy. Take a piece of string and cut it in half. How many times can you cut it in half? That’s right, it can be cut an indefinite amount of times. There, I just took something simple and made it very complex. Amazing :eeek:

    Where did the chemical elements come from?
    They've existed since the universe came into being and are part of these laws that govern the universe?

    Where did the mathematical laws and physical properties come from?
    Again, same laws, extremely simple in their nature and they produce something complicated.

    How do we explain the design, complexity and fine-tuning inherent in spiral galaxies, solar systems, and stars?
    Again, very simple laws combine to produce something that looks complicated, but in fact is actually very simple.

    How did life come from a rock?
    It didn't.

    How did a bird come from a lizard?
    Nobody ever said it did.

    Why don't we see birds come from lizards today?
    Because they've never come from lizards, they came from their own evolutionary heritage and background. You imply that things just magically pop out of the air in evolution and that’s how things change. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a thrown rock magically sprout wings and fly away. Fact is neither has science, and if you actually understood evolution you wouldn't argue something as silly as that.

    Why are there no transitional fossils in our museums today?
    There are. We have thousands of transitional fossils, google is your friend here.

    Why have we never observed beneficial mutations?
    You're kidding, right? Remember a while ago, in the UK somewhere there was this area of factories right, and they made all the trees in the area black with toxins. Well, in the same area there was this species of moths that were gray. Now, these poor moths were getting killed left right and center because they couldn’t hide against the tree bark anymore. So after a couple years these moths developed a random mutation that was inherent in their genes that caused their main color to become something more akin to the new color of the tree bark. Guess what? These new moths survived better then the old ones. OH YOUR GOD, EVOLUTION!

    Where did the information code in DNA come from?
    Again, we can't explain this, but this is another one of those annoying simple laws that have become complex over the years.

    Where did the language convention that interprets DNA come from?
    Well, DNA exists, so something had to come along and figure it out, right? Sometimes the stupidest things can make the smartest move. Look at fox for example. It's run, operated, and hosted by some of the stupidest people in america, but yet it just rakes in the money due to peoples fears. It just fits into it's own niche.

    How can we explain the random development of the human eye, reproductive system, digestive tract, brain, heart and lungs?
    Again, this is down to survival of the fittest. We've got examples dating back millions of years that show the gradual evolution of every organ in the human body. We've even found evidence of how cells evolved. Science = good.

    What about the subconscious mind?
    That is a byproduct of our own electro-chemical thought process. It's nothing special. I mean, just because the voices in my head tell me to kill every left handed clown wearing pink makeup doesn't mean it's due to divine influence, does it?

    What about love, morality, ethics, and emotions?
    Love is caused by a release of chemicals in our brain that inhibit certain thought patterns. Nothing more. Morality is developed by society, not some "higher power". In fact, morality can be whatever you want it to be: if you think that going out and raping donkeys is moral, but feeding your child isn't, then that is your morality. Again, ethics are exactly the same as morality: they're a sociatial product that makes it easier to live with other people by. Emotions are just byproducts of our brains chemistry. Unfortunately science already understands all of this.

    Can these things really evolve gradually and randomly over time?
    Who said anything about randomidity? Survival of the fittest is everything but random. The better will always come out on top, nothing random about that.



    Creationism, ID, whatever you want to call it is simply a religious thought process to attempt to explain how we got here without actually doing any thinking for ourselves.

    If there is anything I missed (and I know there is) I’m sure Nexxo could clear it up, he always seems to do that.
     
  18. J-Pepper

    J-Pepper Minimodder

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    Please, nobody is forcing you be believe that these are actualities, unlike creationism who say this is how it is.

    You are taught (if you were taught well anyway, I went to a private grammar school so i'm not sure about the state of state schools) that these are theories that are accepted as being the most likely scenario until someone either comes along and (dis)proves it or offers an alternative to the contrary.

    If you had any general knowledge at all, you would know that the big bang is not the only theory out there for the beginnings of the universe, but it is the most widely accepted theory by the majority of the worlds scientists.
    If a scientist comes up with an alternative theory tomorrow, and was backed up with enough viable and credible mathematic 'evidence' then the big bang theory could be challenged and defeated.

    This is similar to what has occured with the Law of Gravity, a fundamental aspect of it was rewritten (not really rewritten par se, just tweaked in a very different direction), because a more credible theory was formed, one that fits the models, experimentation and mathematics better.

    would you ever see a creationist say 'hey, there is another theory that fits the bill better than ours... maybe they are on the right track and we're not?'

    hmmm.. i doubt it.

    Why not? given unlimited time you could drop a coin off the empire state building and eventually get it into an egg cup placed on the sidewalk below.

    And before you say that there is no such thing as infinite time? Firstly, how do you know? and secondly, given the universe is several, several billion years old.. wouldn't you say that plenty time enough considering life on earth only makes a spec on that time scale, not even a spec, probably even smaller than a pin prick.
     
    Last edited: 24 Nov 2005
  19. NaThRo

    NaThRo What's a Dremel?

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    Those questions were from the site I referenced at the top, I think they were mainly hypothetical, but thanks for the answers anyway.

    The point I think was, it takes just as much faith in stuff that "can't be proven" to believe evolution/big bang as it does creation.
     
  20. J-Pepper

    J-Pepper Minimodder

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    You have a point there, but there is a vital difference...

    to a scientist, he does experiments, he takes results based on what he sees, he can then model it using a mathematical model and then using that math, he can try to explain how, when and why before using the answers to experiment more to see if it follows the math and the trend carries on as follows until he reaches a conclusion based upon the facts, experimentation and observations.. oh and that the fact that a scientist is ready to admit he is wrong if another credible theory and conclusion is reached.

    a creationist already has the end result, he already has the conclusion. What they lack is the evidence (in it's various forms), or even any thing resembling it (other than the old testiment in the bible.. oh and that people live on the earth) to reach the conclusion they have already decided to be true.
    And they are not willing to budge on their conclusion.. it may as well be set in stone.
     

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