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Those wacky creationists....

Discussion in 'General' started by DreamTheEndless, 22 Nov 2005.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Isn't possible to just accept God's existence on faith? As specofdust says:
    I indeed wonder why those who (supposedly) believe in God need to most prove His existence. Faith should be enough. After all, faith is what it is about. Remember? "For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible. For those who do, no explanation is necessary."

    Suppose that God, if He exists, has neatly arranged it that you can never prove or disprove His existence. Perhaps He did that for a reason. Perhaps He wanted people to believe in the principles He stands for, to follow them because you believe it is the right thing to do. No rewards, no promises. You do the right thing because you believe it is the right thing to do.

    Similarly, just because science has found a pretty plausible explanation for how we got to be (and please note, it never aimed to answer why), doesn't mean it challenges the existence of God. Religion has interpreted the debate that way. Science remains impartial on the subject.

    You may also argue that "man will never create an intelligent machine" but only one century ago, man would never fly or go to the moon... Sentience is an emergence phenomenon. If we ever get to replicate what goes on in the brain (not that hard really, we manage on a neuronal cluster scale already, so it is just a matter of scaling thigs up dramatically. Perhaps with the Pentium 5 :p ), we may well get sentience.
     
  2. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    While faith is needed, the search for truth is linear with faith. As the bible says we "must worship in spirit and truth", as I recall that's in one of the letters to the congregations.

    So I and those that believe in the same thing I do don't go on just blind faith, or taking things on face value. The bible defines what faith is, "faith is the assured expectation of things to come, the evident demonstration of things yet not beheld". Faith isn't a determination to believe anything and everything despite logical reasoning.

    In the end though I think your correct in saying that perhaps God made it this way for neither to be proven or unproven. Or perhaps it's that other being Satan who makes it this way. But it's true, the bible explains how god wants us to feel towards him. Its a yearning to please him from our heart and for our imperfect nature he provides a reward for those earnestly seeking him and trying to please him.

    Although, about impartiality, it does actually challenge the existence of a creator. I could quote many newscientist.com articles on this subject. Btw, great site...
     
  3. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    Ok, so a manuscript that was written a long, long time ago over the course of nearly 2000 years, one that has repeatedly been edited, translated and re-translated, added to and taken away from, states that "God created the heavens and the earth...the creatures, mountains, trees, etc." I could nit-pick and state that the Bible doesn't really say how He created it all, just that he created it. To me, blind adherence to every written word is what leads to fundamentalism. God is much bigger than us, and it doesn't surprise me that parts of the Bible aren't accurate, considering it was written by human hands, long before our modern understanding of the how the world works (which isn't to say that we really understand it all yet).

    Consider 3000 years ago, before there was any real knowledge of plate techtonics. The known world to you is a chain of islands. One day a huge tidal wave comes in and kills off most of your civilization. Today we blame an earthquake at the bottom of the ocean. Back then it was a Biblical event.

    To say that God could create every single thing in the universe (both physical and non-physical) but that he couldn't think of evolution is selling Him short, in my opinion. As a Christian I have no problem believing in a creator, but looking at the world around me and seeing how diverse it has become (and how it continues to change), it's much easier for me to think of creation through evolution. We continue to evolve.

    I like to think of God as a baker of sorts. I created 3 pies yesterday, but I didn't just will them into existence. I put the ingredients together and let science (chemical/physical reactions, heat, flavor combinations) do the work. Same thing with humans.

    Every time I read these kind of debates, without fail I think back to one of the best Futurama episodes ever. Bender is lost, floating through space. After a series of events, he meets God. Bender asks Him a bunch of questions about being God, because his own efforts failed. Over the course of the conversation, the writers gave one of the best decriptions of God that I've ever heard: "...Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope...If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

    -monkey
     
  4. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    Yeah bible doesn't go into very in depth detail how he created all biological or terra (like planets, stars, etc...). Because, simply, in the end it's not really that important in the grande scheme of things that he has in store. Which is what I think some of you are trying to state.

    But the same reasoning as supermonkey is why I said he could use any means neccessary to fulfill what he wanted to. For instance reproduction is a process that has been set in motion for just about every living thing on the earth. To say that God would have to make each person is incredibly blind. It's already set in motion from the beginning. So it's possible he could have used what he made to his advantage if he wanted to. But like I said it's not in any detail in the bible and I don't really want to speculate anything.

    I didn't mean appease as in so they are happy with us (those that believe and have "faith" in a creator), it's more have them think outside the box.
     
  5. DivineSin

    DivineSin What's a Dremel?

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    Or because if they whent into detail on how god created the universe, it would of been boring to the people who they were trying to make believe in the story.

    You could also say that the bible doesnt go into detail because the people who created it didnt -know- anything. They werent scientists, they didnt know how the world worked. They were just stupid by todays standards and its kind of sad that people would still believe in something thats proven to be so inacurate
     
  6. hitman012

    hitman012 Minimodder

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    "Stupid" is only relative. Someone in 50 years might read archived posts on this forum and think:

    "Wow, they thought global warming was caused by CO2! Laughable"

    The people in those times were trying to explain things in a way that made sense to them - the scientific method was practically non-existent; there was no solid knowledge upon which to base their conclusions. Therefore, the solution was to attribute it to a superhuman being, i.e. God.

    I'm not a Christian as such; I don't think that the things in the Bible are actually true (although I do believe there was a man called Jesus, whether he was the son of God is another matter). It's my opinion that the stories are purely metaphorical - the morals within in them, at least in many cases, are solid, and ones that we should live by today.

    The condemnation of homosexuality in it is something that dates from a time where such things weren't as acceptable. It's hardly a baser moral value such as "Love thy neighbour"; more a reflection of older attitudes.
     
  7. DivineSin

    DivineSin What's a Dremel?

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    This is my point, they were smart for there time, but stupid for our time and thus didnt know anything about science and how the world 'probably' works. This is just about the only proof you need to know to realise that the bible is full of crap. These men wrote the book without the help of god, if they wrote it with the help of god, then it would not be inacturate to this day.
     
  8. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    I'm sorry, but any society that can build something the likes of the Pyramids at Giza, or the multitude of pyramid structures throughout Mexico and Central America, is not one that I would consider stupid by our time. Even more so considering these structures are still standing as sound as ever.

    They might not have had as much in-depth knowledge about the physical world (and thus didn't understand certain natural phenomena to the extent that we now understand them), but they weren't necessarily rock-thumping morons.

    Like I said, God is bigger than any of us. We'll never truly undersand how or why it all exists; but, like others have said, maybe we're not really meant to.

    -monkey
     
  9. DivineSin

    DivineSin What's a Dremel?

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    Even an idiot can build a house out of bricks and morter, thats all i have to say. But were not talking about -building- something, were talking about knowing how the world works. Not to be racist or anything, but mexicans are cheap hire for building homes and repairing just about anything you can think of (It might be a stereotype, but its kinda true), but ask them about how the world was made or how the theory of evolution works and they probably wont have a clue.
     
  10. supermonkey

    supermonkey Deal with it

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    Wow. I'm not really sure how to respond to that.

    I'm not Mexican and I can't tell you how evolution works. I can give you the basic stuff I learned in high school, but apart from that I'm in uncharted waters. Nor can I begin to explain how the world works. I can make some observations, but my scientific background is very limited. There's a reason I studied the arts.

    I guess that's where faith comes in. I can't begin to tell you why some things happen the way they do, but I'm sure there is a reason for it all.

    I think this is where I bow out. I don't want to take this discussion any further off track.

    -monkey
     
  11. DivineSin

    DivineSin What's a Dremel?

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    The only reason i referenced mexicans is because there a stereotype for building a fixing (A reference to your pyramid building..which now that i look at came long before the bible was made) but were not talking about the average person. We have scientists that -do- know how the world works, how things are done, and how evolution happens. However, no one in that time era did, their was no way they could just pop up on the internet and do some research. Thus why the writers of the bible invisioned the creation of the humans with Adam and Eve. If it was written with the help of god (If there was one), i'm sure it would of been a much more realistic way.

    Thats my point, they were not stupid, but they didnt know the facts and couldnt translate said facts into the bible. Thus is why it is now littered today with things that are wrong and why most people say you just cant take it literally.

    However, i highly doubt that when it was written it was written to be taken seriously, not literally. It was written with 'help' from god, and thus suppose to be taken for fact and truth.
     
  12. Malvolio

    Malvolio .

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    I honestly don't have a problem with you believing in what you believe in, what I do have a problem with is you labeling yourself as a christian.

    If the bible is the inspired word of god, wouldn't that mean it was true in some form, at all? If you're going to believe in something and label yourself, then you should at very least believe in what it is you're following.

    Picking and choosing which parts of the bible you think are true and then stating that it is more a way of moral belief does not make you part of a main stream religion, it makes you your own religion. Believe it or not, your own church would agree with me (up until about 30-40 years ago, when they changed due to social pressure).

    Even if you argue that the bible was "inspired by god" in a way that the people at the time of writing could understand it, why then, when we translate it to today’s terms doesn't any of it hold up as true? Hell, nothing is even remotely true. Yeah, sure, there are a couple stories in there that have a slight background of truth (the flood for example), but they are not accounts of actual fact.

    You also speak of the ten commandments. Here is a good example of why the bible is crap in today’s world: "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". This is your daily bible lesion: Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of solemn rest to Yahweh: whoever does any work in it shall be put to death.

    Yeah, the bible is a great source of moral stand point. I'm not taking it out of context, I'm only copy and pasting it. Read it for yourself in your own bible.





    Anyway, all that is besides the point, if you want to believe in ID or creationism, believe in it, just don't try to prove it, and then go around say your still following the "word of god" by being part of a religion. Because the moment you try and extrapolate beyond the bible you're only proving that you don't have enough faith in your own religion. Be happy with what you believe, don't just keep searching out these things to back you up, as you're no longer faith driven, you're entering the world of science, and it isn't faith based.



    Oh, and try to explain evolution to an “Isralite, two-thousand years ago”? I would imagine it would be just about as hard as explaining it to fundamentalists today. They both rely upon the same basic belief system, just worded a bit differently. You don’t have to use big words to describe something so simple ;)
     
  13. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    Actually the bible writers talk of the earth being round and hanging upon nothing, way before Columbus or Galileo. It also speaks of the water cycle and many other scientific observations that were very ahead of it's time. About the embryo and being formed in the womb about how God had written down all the information for each of the parts being made. Your assumption is just that, an assumption. And you know what an Assumption does right? Makes and A$$ out of you and me...
     
  14. DivineSin

    DivineSin What's a Dremel?

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    Care to take any quotes out of the actual bible? Instead of just saying they are there?
     
  15. kickarse

    kickarse What's a Dremel?

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    Usually this debate ends in people saying that we should believe something that we don't. While this one has ended with each side pushing that they should believe what they want. Usually you guys say you gotta keep searching and not being stagnate and you have to prove it over and over and over again, yadda yadda. But when you tell us that we should just believe what we believe, wouldn't that result in us being as well fundamentalist in thought and action?

    It's quite interesting... The simple fact though is you can't tell me that just because I look at the world through a scientific and a faith based perspective that I'm confused in some way and that i should choose one or the other.

    Btw, when you base what religions do to some bible command that neither you nor the religion understands your going to obviously err on your reasoning. The sabbath was done away with when Jesus had done away with the old law convenant that God initiallymade with Moses. He created a new convenant with his new chosen people/followers who were, instead of phsyically circumcized as physical isreal (jews), they were to become circumcized of heart, spiritually speaking from many nations and tribes and toungues. Truly, much of the bible holds up to today's standards. The guidelines found in the bible are still very pertinent. The principles are unequaled. The prophecies that have taken place, are taking place now and will take place. The much historical fact found in the bible.

    You have to remember too that there's religions that call themselves christian that have very differing views from one to the other... That doesn't make them labeled less "christian" because of that. Perhaps just not a true Christian. But your right in one respects, we can't just pick and choose what we want to believe. It's either everything or nothing.

    excuse my spelling errors... im tired :)
     
  16. acron^

    acron^ ePeen++;

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    If you know so much about what makes a Christian, Malfoleo, please enlighten us to which church is the correct one?

    Baptist
    Lutheran
    Presbyterian
    Protestant
    Catholic
    Methodist
    Anglican
    Evangelical
    Mennonite
    Apostolic
    Brethren
    Christian Science
    Church of Christ
    Church of the Nazarene
    Episcopal
    Fellowship
    Mormon
    Non-Denominational
    Orthodox
    Pentecosta
    Reformed
    Seventh-day Adventist
    Unitarian

    According to your definition, because I class myself as "Anglican/Non-Denominational", I am not a Christian. So which one should I become? Please, I need to know!

    Or, shall I give up my faith all together and lead a directionless existance, just like you?

    Some one without faith will never understand what it is like or what it means to have faith. I have more of these discussions with atheists, who are apparently hell-bent on disproving God, than any other religious person. One of my housemates is Jewish and he and I are constantly discussing religion. There's no bitterness or confrontation because when two people of faith come together, there's like a subconcious, calm understanding. One Malfoleo and DivineSin will never experience. Why are atheists so bitter about disproving the existance of God? I think they just feel left out.
     
    Last edited: 26 Nov 2005
  17. Malvolio

    Malvolio .

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    acron^, you've once again proved you honestly don't get what people are saying. Good job.

    You are not part of any major religion. You believe differently (yes, only one some bits, but you still believe differently) from the way christianity as a religion is.

    As to your answer: none of the above. You're part of the acron^ religious group, and that’s it. Believe what you want to believe, have fun with that, but don't call yourself a christian and then tell me you don't believe in part of the bible. That is offensive to me.


    Oh, and by the way, I was brought up religious and was for many years of my life, but then I realized how silly it all was and that it wasn't for me. So yeah, I know what it means ;)


    And who ever said anything about a "directionless existence"? I hear this used as an insult towards so many people that I think it has lost its meaning. I do have a direction in my life (I know, I know, amazing that somebody who doesn't believe in your god has a direction), and you want to know what it is?

    To live my life as I see it, do as much as I can, find out what life is like, and then to die.

    People like you seem to think that without god you don't have any direction, and yet you call me ignorant or moronic? I think you, sir, need to take a good long look at yourself. I'm happy you believe what you do, and I'm not trying to change it, all's I'm saying is that you classify yourself as one thing, and yet you are another. You are in effect making yourself out to be less than you are. :)



    I don't mean any disrespect, and I'm sorry if you see it as such.
     
  18. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    People in the past were smart, they were just smart about about different things, with the limited knowledge thta was available. Knowledge is recursive and accumulative. As Newton said: we stand on the shoulders of giants...

    And the Bible really is an allegory rather than an exact factual account. When you are a prophet, you have to adapt to the audience, you know... many ordinary folks weren't bright then and they aren't bright now. You have to keep it understandable to them.

    And Malfoleo: you don't have to believe in the whole Bible to be a Christian. Jesus didn't. ;)
     
  19. acron^

    acron^ ePeen++;

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    The only disrespect is the disrespect to Bit-Tech as a medium for your stupid, twisted view of religion.

    Malfoleo, you've once again proved you honestly don't get what people are saying nor do you have any idea about the subject around which, you are trying to model your argument. You have, once again, completely (and in my opinion purposefully) missed the point of what I was trying to say and used such misdirection to try and discredit me and make me look bad. If you can't fight fair dude, don't even bother - all your doing is making yourself look petty and immature.

    I am a Christian because I believe in the Christian fundamentals. I believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son and The Holy Spirit. I believe that the Bible is the holy scripture. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and that when my time comes I will judged accordingly.

    All the different churches I listed, believe the same as I do. Except their interpretation of various different practices differs. Catholics focus their attention on the Virgin Mary whilst Baptists focus their attention on John the Baptist and practice total immersion baptisms.

    Ergo, by telling me I'm not Christian because my interpretations are not "exactly as it says in the Bible", you are also suggesting that of the churches, there is only one right one and all the rest must also be wrong. I have told you the reasons behind my particular interpretations of the Bible, specifically Genesis, which is what this thread was about - as of yet, you have totally ignored these, or twisted them completely. For example, I have never said that there were parts of the Bible that I didn't believe in: I simply don't see why there only has to be one interpretation.

    Then again, without faith, you can't understand.
     
  20. Malvolio

    Malvolio .

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    Yeah, I'm not going to continue this, as you're twisting things far out of context and making them hateful where they are not.

    But I do have a problem with this statement: "For example, I have never said that there were parts of the Bible that I didn't believe in: I simply don't see why there only has to be one interpretation."

    Exodus 21:7
    "If a man sells his daughter to be a female servant, she is not to go free as the male servants do."

    Corinthians 11:14
    "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him"

    Deuteronomy 21:21
    "Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid."

    Lev 20:13
    "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

    Rom 1:31-32
    "Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."

    Dt 23:2
    "A ******* shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
    (if you don't understand it, look up the word *******)



    If you believe in the bible, and that your god is perfect, then you shouldn't just throw out certain things because they don't fit into your life. Yes you can interpret certain things, but you can't just throw them out all together.



    @Nexxo: jesus didn't believe in the bible because it didn't exist :p jesus was a jew by the way ;) Not saying that religions biased upon the "lord and savior" are wrong, I'm just saying that if your lord is a jew, then maybe being jewish isn't so bad...

    Mt 2:1-2
    "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

    See? Even the bible says that jesus was a jew!
     

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