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E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Discussion in 'Serious' started by TheBlackSwordsMan, 22 Feb 2016.

  1. MLyons

    MLyons 70% Dev, 30% Doge. DevDoge. Software Dev @ Corsair Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    in short it's more a over supply of idiots in the UK rather than a shortage of fuel here or elsewhere. We do have a HGV shortage in the UK which we've seen as part of the lack of food on some shelves. Even in the graphic above we've got the highest number of vacancies. Add that to the media we have over here and it's a recipe for disaster
     
  2. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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    Hit the nail right on the head!
     
  3. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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    The media reported that 7 out of 1200 BP filling stations had closed and, that there was no shortage of fuel in the UK. The panic buying was the result of mass stupidity. People that stupid shouldn't be allowed out on their own.
     
  4. damien c

    damien c Mad FPS Gamer

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    I have just got a new car, well new to me need to pick it up but waiting for the dealer to call to say when I can collect it.

    On Tuesday I put a full tank in my old car, which I will be selling next week for £2k.

    Not looking forward though as such to picking up my new car because I have got to hope and prey I can find somewhere where the idiots have not emptied since I guarentee the dealer will only leave enough fuel in the car to get around 10 miles at most.
     
    MLyons likes this.
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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  6. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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  7. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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  8. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    This seems mad and super-entitled on so many levels. You worked in an office until a comfy retirement age that was calibrated for people with life expectancies 15 years lower than yours, and felt it was normal to be able to own a villa in a foreign country and fly hundreds of miles to visit it every year, living out there and having your pension money go twice as far because you've removed yourself to a country with an economy half as good as yours?

    On some level, I can't blame them for doing it while it was an option, in the same way that I can't blame people for grabbing at the air when a bank convoy explodes and sends a cloud of paper notes into the sky. But feeling entitled to that level of opulence just seems hopelessly out of touch with the realities of normal human existence. Everything in this system, from the cars and planes to the cheap villas and the social and legal arrangements that made it possible for foreigners to buy them and fly out to visit them every summer, is a result of happy chance timing and the collective efforts of millions of people and the scales of economy that result. Amazing that it ever happened. Bonkers to feel like you ever had a right to it.
     
  9. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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  10. enbydee

    enbydee Minimodder

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    The sewage thing isn't new sadly, and restrictions are simply not enough, Southern Water was fined £90m earlier this year. The company had 168 previous offences and cautions but kept pumping sewage into the sea and underreporting it to avoid the fines. Water companies have self-reported pollution incidents (i.e. self-reported how much they should be fined) since 2010, bit like drivers self-reporting when they go over the speed limit.

    It makes me pretty mad to be honest, like the system just has absolutely no interest in safeguarding the environment. What do electric cars, heat pumps, wind turbines mean... it's just more money for eco-capitalism, we have to buy stuff and continue consuming to be environmentally friendly... seems ludicrous when the directors who knowingly shat on shellfish farms and said nothing can walk free.

    Similarly most rivers in the UK should not be swum in. The levels of phosphates from agricultural run-off has meant that dangerous amounts of algae persist nearly everywhere. But "there's not enough evidence" and "we will take it under advisement and propose a review" from the toothless defunded Environment Agency is about all you get.
     
  11. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    It isn't, and can be traced back directly to the (Tory) privatisation of water and sewerage. However, we used to have the European Commission pushing back on it. Used to, of course, because that's not the case any more.
     
  12. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Whoopsie - dunno about the fish, but the oysters don't seem thrilled with the Sun-Lit Uplands. Err, Up...waters?

    Also, I'd just like to highlight the closing paragraph here: "In comments to broadcasters, Mr Eustice signalled that the water sector would have five years to show progress on the matter, but that bills would have to increase to fund infrastructure improvements."

    Now... that's literally what we were told privatisation would do: fund sewerage infrastructure improvements. They've had 30 years to do that. What have they done instead? Extracted billions in shareholder dividends. Literally just lined their pockets. And... here we are, looking to foot the bills that should have been already paid out of 30 years of profits.

    I quote this briefing:

    "Various arguments were used in favour of privatisation, including claims that: the private sector would be more efficient; private companies would be better able to finance the large investments needed; and privatisation would create competition.

    "These claims were not supported by evidence from comparative studies or international reviews of the actual performance of public and private sector water companies.

    "Within a few years of privatisation the privatised water companies were unpopular, with a bad reputation for excessive pricing, excessive profits, and poor performance. As summarised by the parliamentary committee: 'After privatisation profits started to soar in real terms' 'between 1990/91 and 1997/8 the pre-tax profits of the ten water and sewerage companies increased by 147% at a time when customers faced continual price rises. Water and sewerage prices rose respectively by 36% and 42% from 1988-1998 (in real terms) with the bulk of the increase occurring in the period up to 1994-1995. The industry faced a public outcry in relation to high levels of directors' pay and profits.'

    "The universal experience of water privatisation in the UK was a sharp increase in the cost of water. On average, prices rose by over 50% in the first 4 years. The first 9 years produced an increase of 46% in real terms, adjusted for inflation

    "OFWAT identifies three main components of customers' bills: operating costs, capital charges (for investment and renewals), and operating profits. A graphic presentation of these elements over the period since privatisation shows that operating expenditure as a proportion of bills has shrunk; the capital charges have risen; but operating profits, which have more than doubled, account for virtually the entire increase in customers' bills."

    Furrfu.
     
    Last edited: 27 Oct 2021
  13. sandys

    sandys Multimodder

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  14. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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  15. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    A "BEWARE OF THE LEOPARD" sign offers at least some discouragement; we've replaced it with with a "COME ON IN THE WATER'S LOVELY SIGNED THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY" notice... (Well, until the U-turn, and assuming they actually deliver on said U-turn...)
     
  16. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    Pffft, SAS have done more for water quality.
    Privatisation isn't the big bad monster under the bed, it's just that now fat cats are making money off an industry that is in dire need of investment to stem the neglect, rather than nobody making money off an industry in dire need of investment to stem the neglect.

    As can be seen in Scotland, which hasn't privatised its water, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58040852 and has problems with sewage discharge
     
  17. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    The industry earns the fat cats nowt, 'cos it's not like banknotes rain from the sky; they're making money off me and thee.
    Oh, aye, we had problems with sewage discharge in England before privatisation, too - but my point was that privatisation was supposed to be the solution. Thatcher literally told us that by privatising water and sewerage it'd get the investment it needed. Here we are, 30 years and dozens of profit-driven price hikes later, and we're being told that didn't happen - but if we pay even more then it'll definitely get fixed this time, honest.

    Bah. Bah, I say. Claw the costs back from the shareholders. Better yet, admit the whole thing's a bust and bring it back under public ownership.
     
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  18. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    I struggle to think of anything that privatisation has improved.

    I don't disagree, but it'll only get worse, and you'll still be paying for it.
    A quick google suggest that them up in Scotland only pay £30 PA less than the average English water bill
     
  19. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Taking those figures at face value, 'cos I really should be concentrating on actual work right now: there are, apparently, 56.5 million people in England (well, as of 2020, anyway - possibly a bit less now, I guess...). Let's say the average household has two people in it, ignoring businesses entirely. That's 28.25 million households. Times that by £30, you get £847.5 million. Times that by 30 years, and that's £24.43 billion with a buh.

    Yeah, those are fag-packet maths - but my point is that why are we saying "hey, Scotland's sewerage is just as shite (no pun intended) as England's" when we in England have put nearly £25 billion more into it? Shouldn't it be £25 billion better than Scotland's?

    In actuality, of course, the numbers are considerably higher - as per my link earlier. In fact, starting from 1991 - two years post-privatisation - shareholders of English water and sewerage firms have pulled out £57 billion in dividends. Fifty-seven billion-with-a-buh. And now we're told the system is under-funded and bills need to go up to fix the problem? How about no. How about you spend some of that £57 billion on fixing the problem instead, like we were told you would.
     
  20. mrlongbeard

    mrlongbeard Multimodder

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    Maybe, probably.
    But look on the bright side, it was crap, it's still crap and it's generated billions for share holders, that's living the dream.
    And being the miserable pessimist that I can be at times, who also should be working, I really don't see bringing it back into public hands making it any better (regardless of who is living @ No.10), and maybe more importantly to you making it any cheaper
     

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