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Windows Star Citizen

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by Parge, 10 Oct 2012.

  1. bawjaws

    bawjaws Well-Known Member

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    Good post, Gareth. The whole point of stuff like Kickstarter is that you're pledging for something, not just giving money away for a developer to do with as they please. If the developer doesn't use your pledged money for the purpose that they stated (e.g. spends most of it on booze and hookers and wastes the rest), then they've effectively obtained money by deception (imo), regardless of how casually you've handed it over.

    This is one of Derek Smart's arguments - that CIG are not being sufficiently accountable as to how they are spending these tens of millions of pounds. It's an argument that has some merit, although it's severely undermined by the way that Smart is conducting himself.

    NB: I'm not for a second suggesting that the abvove is what CIG are doing, but the fact remains that you have rights under the Kickstarter terms, should you wish to exercise them.
     
  2. N17 dizzi

    N17 dizzi Well-Known Member

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    Statutory consumer law and crowdfunding seems like a grey area to me. I find it hard to see how paying money for something to help bring it into existence is the same as ordering something from Amazon, for example. There is a risk that it won't happen and that risk should be considered before making a pledge.

    This is where I feel Mr. Smart made a few valid points in terms of accountability. However, I also think Star Citizen are being accountable and honest in where they are with the project.

    I personally have written off the money I paid to SC in the same way I wrote off the money I paid for Cliffs of Dover and X Rebirth on release, or the money I paid for Titan X when they released a 980ti a month later.

    Edit: You added more to your post above, Gareth. This post does not reflect these changes. Your statutory rights are not affected.
     
    Last edited: 29 Sep 2015
  3. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    If I pay £2,000 to a roofer to fit me a new roof, I'm paying money for something to help bring it into existence. If, six months after the promised delivery date, I have no new roof, I would be seeking redress under my statutory rights. Replace "roofer" with "creator" and "new roof" with "Kickstarter campaign reward" and the same still applies: the creator promised that in exchange for my cash I'd get a reward; no reward, I want my cash back. Yes, the fact that the creator has turned to crowd-funding rather than more traditional funding methods suggests a higher risk - there's a good chance said creator has no idea what he or she is doing, for a start - but no more so than if I'd chosen to put my trust in Honest John's Totally Not Crooked Roofing Firm after he turned up in his clapped-out Ford Cortina to collect the cheque.
    See above: yes, there is a risk, but that has no effect on whether or not you're eligible for a refund under your statutory rights; just on whether you'll ever actually get a refund.
    I don't see how those examples relate - especially the last one. You still have your Titan X, right? It didn't vanish into a puff of smoke when the 980 Ti came out? The other games, they exist, yes? You still own them?

    When we're discussing refunds for crowd-funded projects, we're talking about projects that failed to deliver. If you'd ordered a Titan X based on promises that it was the best thing ever, and then months after the proposed launch date had received nothing - or substantially nothing, like perhaps you got a heatsink, or a DVI cable, with the promise the card was following at some indeterminate point in the future - would you have written your money off then, or would you be seeking a refund?

    I smiled.
     
  4. DeckerdBR

    DeckerdBR Active Member

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    I have backed quite a few early access titles in the last few years, thinking of Kerbal Space Program, Subnautica, Besiege, Space Engineers, Cosmonautica and Broken Age to name a few off the top of my head.

    I go into it knowing these project might be a disappointment, hoping that my contribution will get me a great game and not the usual trash pushed out by Ubisoft or EA. That being said, we should be free to criticise the developers based on their behavior and what they do or don't deliver.

    I'm afraid that CIG give off the impression of being badly organised, unable to hit deadlines and releasing repeated 20-30 gig clients for little actual gain. Feature creep or extra polish depending on your personal take maybe but they don't help themselves by creating a poor perception. As my old boss used to say, "perception is reality".

    If you compare them to any of the developers above (even double-fine with their projects ending quite averagely with fairly heavy consumer backlash) one of the things those devs handle better is the project updates and customer communication. And before some smart ass says it, yes, I understand that CIG have taken on a massive project, potentially bigger in scale that most of the games before it.
    But that doesn't absolve them for coming across like rank amateurs and being slow to learn lessons. Too many of the video updates they post are so cringe worthy, i'm sure i'm not the only one who feels that!

    I have only contributed 30-40 quid to the project so am only partly invested in it and I hope the project ends in an excellent success and the majority are happy, I really do. However maybe if refunds were an easier option, CIG would have a good incentive to get their rears in gear and stop pissing so much time up the wall.
     
  5. Parge

    Parge the worst Super Moderator

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    Wow. I definitely feel that that is overly harsh!

    Star Citizen isn’t remotely comparable to any of those games – they are quintessentially indie titles vs Star Citizen which is without doubt a Triple AAA game. As such, the projects differ vastly in scope – Kerbal for example only has about 15 people on the project – Star Citizen has 300! If we just look at headcount, SC is 20x the size.

    Also, this line just simply is not true:

    Sure, some of the stuff is kinda cringey (I don’t watch ATV anymore), but show me another developer on the planet that posts as many updates and has better communication with its backers. If this isn’t enough for people then their expectations are too high, simple as that.

    Client update sizes are just the nature of an early CDN build – hopefully changes will come in patches soon, but again, alpha build so we’ll have to deal with it for now. I just feel sorry for people with slow internet.

    Legitimate criticisms of Star Citizen in my eyes would be that they continually miss deadlines (as do a lot of developers in all areas of software), and the continually collection of revenue might leave a bad taste in the mouth in the context of the above.
     
    Last edited: 29 Sep 2015
  6. N17 dizzi

    N17 dizzi Well-Known Member

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    I shall not attempt to dissuade or argue against statutory law. I am saying that crowd funding has a risk minimally of disappointed expectations the same as any other product, which is why I made those examples, and as you say; that actually getting a refund will likely be more problematic than from an Amazon, or whatever - and that this risk is more apparent. At least it was to me when I made my pledge.

    I also think Honest John's Totally Not Crooked Roofing Firm may be worth a punt.

    ---

    I hope the SC project is a success, and will not get overly upset if it is not. Like other stuff I have paid money for my own entertainment: it may be great or it may be rubbish (or not even come to fruition!). I also accept that I may be lucky to get 5 cents on the dollar, if it were to go belly up.
     
  7. DraigUK

    DraigUK Member

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    I'd agree with with this, I've put - well it's been so long I don't even remember how much I put into SC.

    Maybe £50 or so.

    Anyway, whatever it is, I gave up a long time ago reading the CR crap every week, and can only admire him for being an absolute genius, able to get millions from people for delivering essentially a buggy hanger demo.

    The best one he has managed to do is get people to literally part with hundreds and thousands of cash on an in game ship that only exisits on paper and probably won't be available in any meaningful way for years.

    I salute CR for being a genius at getting people to part with cash and then rabidly defend their decison to do so without having anything to show for it, but SC has been and continues to be nothing more than vaporware, gloriously marketed and in the making for years, with years to come still, and until something solid and meaningful actually gets out to us, that is all it will remain.

    I don't really doubt CR's intentions, but until something actually playable gets delivered, it is all just amrketing.

    I look forward to playing this thing sometime before I retire, where I'm almost certain it will be a buggy, disappointing mess of a game.

    In the meantime, I'm still playing Elite.
     
  8. teamtd11

    teamtd11 *Custom User Title*

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    I think this is pretty much it, As a company they have to try bringing money in continuously. The concept sales are good for a few reasons, They are at first just a concept, the idea is you pledge for the role of the ship.
    This should allow them to see ships that people desire and direction to progress in the future. Problem is there priority to get ships into the game is first for S42. A lot of people feel they have not go anything to show for there pledge. CIG have recently been improving this with showing status of where they ships are and putting things into more refined production lines to speed up the delivery of these ships. I know the Caterpillar is just coming out from under the radar again. For someone that bought into the game to play that ship or role they have nothing yet.

    As for the deadlines well, they do horribly with them, and that's what causes a lot of worry for people. The scale of the dream has reached critical mass. I think stopping the stretch goals and only pulling money in from ship sales helps. I think the stretch goal format pushed people to just chip in more and more to get the next goal.

    What I think currently is nothing is going to happen now until citizencon has happened. A lot is hopefully being held from us to give a good show.
    If by the end of the year we don't have fps which should be bundled with the so called baby PU then CIG are likely going to be under a lot of fire.
    When they comes out though I think finally we will see the full picture for the future of the game. Be it good or bad.
     
  9. DeckerdBR

    DeckerdBR Active Member

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    I don't think it is, I paid the monies, I get an opinion from my experiences thus far.

    I really hate the term triple A, because it applies equally to the yearly drivel poop titles like call of duty or assassins creed... and we all know what shallow averageness those titles are ;)

    Regarding their communications output, yes they put out lots of guff. But quantity of guff is not the same as a quality update to mark demonstrable progress. So what if they have a team of 300, is that an excuse for repeatedly missing their own deadlines, does that not support my perception that they are disorganised?

    The client size is one issue (massively exacerbated for those of us on slow internet connections) but it's the continues re-downloaded due to a widely acknowledged corruption of the files in their own download tool, that repeatedly occurred that lets them down. Alpha blah blah yea yea, I get it but even with that in mind, it still leaves a bad taste.

    Expectations wise, I don't have much either way for the final product, other than of course hoping it ends up a 'good game' but what I do expect is for them to deliver roughly speaking, on time to their own promises and at a quality that is minimally acceptable, even for an alpha.

    Most of their output so far has left me feeling cold, now that the initial excitement has worn off. I'm hardly going to be there picketing their forums or raising law suits over it (or even demanding a refund, i'm happy to let this play out for the long game), but you can bet your ass if I have a bad perception, i'm going to share it. Especially when Roberts has given his wife and brother top positions and made them a big part of the videos...

    To end it on a positive, the social module has an impressive attention to detail and has captured a great atmosphere, so if that is anything to go by for future modules, it could turn all well in the end.
     
  10. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Basically CIG are terrible at deadlines. But what they put out, eventually, is remarkably good. I have confidence the game will get done, just later than planned.

    As for large file sizes? Sorry, that's development these days, and being part of it via Alpha/Beta. Every single game I've played like this has been the same, multi-gig downloads on a regular basis.

    Err, I'd recommend downloading the latest client and realising that you can now access one of the planetary groundsides (ArcCorp) and that there's an actual flight combat game that's been in there a while too. Lazy accusations that it's "just a hangar" are exactly that, lazy, and ultimately untrue.
     
  11. DraigUK

    DraigUK Member

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    Er...while I can't be bothered to waste my time d/l it yet, I've seen the vids on people wandering around a hanger and then wandering around a social area. with a dance floor and a barman. Wow. Amazing.

    I've played the "combat game" and it is shockingly bad, laggy and buggy with unresponsive joystick controls.

    So for me, I'm essentially still seeing a hanger you can wander around in, another area you can wander around in and a buggy "combat" arena.

    You might not like that description, but that's what I see after putting my money down about 2 years ago.

    When that changes, I'll change my opinion, but not until then.
     
  12. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Yet you're not willing to even download it and try it yourself? Yeah alright then.
     
  13. DraigUK

    DraigUK Member

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    Try what? Wandering around a hanger or a bar area?

    Correct.
     
  14. teamtd11

    teamtd11 *Custom User Title*

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    Arena commander is wonderful currently. The combat is fun and addicting, I have no problems with lag, I can't choose between joystick and mouse because of gimbled weapons on the Super Hornet. Someone could package the current arena commander with more maps and ships as a game like world of tanks and make so much from it.
    As a alpha I personally believe arena commander is great and its what has me hooked for the future of star citizen.
     
  15. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    Think I donated £20 for the ship I have and full Alpha / Beta. If I'd of donated £1000+ I'd probably be pretty worried at the general lack of progress.

    Hanger is vastly improved but let's be honest it should never of launched in the state it was in.

    The social areas whilst great to look at is little more than that. They have basically very little interaction and I do wonder if each social area will be similarly sparse.

    People say 2016 at earliest for launch I'd be inclined to say late 2017 to early 2018.

    Once they get some resemblance of the game playable it will improve customer perception. A combat simulator and a social space misses a few things in the eyes of many.

    Elite disappointed me to the point where I regret the purchase. PA is only the game it should of been on launch if you get the dlc. That's my 3 Kickstarter titles. 2 disappointments and one Unknown. I've not backed another one and won't again.
     
  16. Pete J

    Pete J RIP Teelzebub

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    Not anymore!
     
  17. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Shush. Apparently having not played the game for months/years means things haven't changed. How dare you suggest otherwise.
     
  18. DraigUK

    DraigUK Member

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    Cei if you think the state of development of SC is a utopian masterclass that's up to you, my opinion is for the amount of time and money they have had it's currently way below my expectations.

    I have plenty of other games and Alphas/Betas to be involved in, in the meantime.

    When CR et al pull their collective fingers out and deliver something worth downloading and trying again I shall do so.

    A pretty poor and very limited, arena game that still has control, bug and lag issues in my opinion, as of a couple of months ago when I last tried it, with a hanger and now a brand new area to walk around in that has a bar and a dance floor is not exactly worth the bother of even downloading, in my opinion, and certainly nothing to be proud of delivering with all that time and money.

    I honestly feel sorry for you feeling the need to praise and accept what is, and so far has been, a shoddy mess and accept that as everything being fine. It's a joke.

    When that situation changes, I'll give it another go.

    In the meantime enjoy your hanger.
     
  19. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Arena Commander has come on leaps and bounds, and recently has fixed many of the problems you describe. I haven't had a lag problem for ages, nor have I wanted to throw a joystick across the room in frustration at the controls. You, by your own admission, haven't played it for months, yet you're happy to criticse something you haven't experienced or even "bother to download".

    Has the development of SC so far been a smooth ride? Of course it hasn't. As I've said multiple times, and only a few posts above here, CIG are terrible at deadlines. That doesn't mean they're wasting money, it means that what they've been working on hasn't been seen by the public yet. You may think the new ArcCorp is just a "bar and a dance floor" but it actually integrates all the backend systems to make the persistent universe work. Sure, it's a limited area, but it actually represents a big step forward as it forms one of the three "legs" of SC (Arena Commander, Persistent Universe, Star Marine). If it was literally an extra few rooms on the hangar it wouldn't make a difference, but that's not the case.

    tl;dr Actually experience something before mouthing off about it. If you then want to critique, fine.
     
  20. rainbowbridge

    rainbowbridge Well-Known Member

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    what's going to be cool is when we are all sitting or moving around a multi person ship and its a long voyage and you have sub tasks during the flight like on board engineering tasks or long distance sensor observations, and then WHAM all hell breaks loose when 5 bogeys are detected on an intercept course ETA 2.5 minutes, everone has to drop what ever the heck it is they are doing and man up the battle positions and you know its not looking good, comm's guy radios out to others to assist but then its just you, your team mates, few guys on huge cal manual fire, and the cold silence of space that will welcome you should your titanium chassis get punctured.




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