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Steam DotA 2

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by Loafers, 15 Aug 2011.

  1. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    Argh.

    Whilst i'm not a fan of throwing the word "innovation" around, i feel just the same way about... "authenticity" or somewhat (at least in the context of this discussion).

    After playing a few more games against Bots and quite frankly, getting my ass handed to me by... Juggernaut? (I'll spin on you and will be immune to magic and I'll Ult you and become untargetable) each time, i'm still rather set that:

    a) I suck at DotA.

    b) I probably won't enjoy it as much as i do League.

    I think playing DotA2 has just made me aware of how dissimilar they are and whlist i won't dispute DotA2's complexity (especially since i can't even grasp the basic knowledge of how it all works), i still love the fact that League is still sufficiently complex and that teams can still come along and completely change the way the game is played as just happened recently (maybe not "completely" change the way it's played, but added some new ideas that Riot has to now hit with the nerf stick).

    Also, DotA2's still has that lack of "user friendliness" that i hope will change out of beta, as it's something that i think League does so well, and what really helped it grow as a game (as opposed to HoN, say).

    For example... the shop in DotA2 is god awful. I was playing Windrunner(?) the Intelligence Archer Carry and her Ult suggests that i don't need to prioritise Attack Speed, which is fine. However apart from the "Recommended Items" of which i bought some, i wanted to look at what else i could build since i wanted some survivability and not just be a glass cannon (for example, some lifesteal).

    League is really nicely laid out so i can just choose "Attack Speed" or "Armor" or the like... DotA2's... the furthest i got was trying to find a component that had Lifesteal and seeing what it built into, whilst hoping I hadn't missed another item.

    Not to mention... what are the thoughts on buliding "Stats" or "Damage"?

    For example, i saw a few items in the shop that are simply +XX damage, whereas say Windrunner gets +1 Damage for every point of Intelligence... so whilst I can see how these items are useful for all "Stats" (i.e. Drow Ranger and Windrunner can both benefit from this item), why wouldn't you prioritise "Stats" instead, since they "give" more (i.e. Strength gives HP, Agility gives Attack Speed, Intelligence gives Mana)?
     
  2. el2k

    el2k Well-Known Member

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    I have 2 beta invites, PM me mate.
     
    DLDeadbolt and nchhabs like this.
  3. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    I'm always a little surprised peeking into the LoL thread and seeing the discussions that go on there. Dota players love to say that it's a very deep game with all sorts of meta aspects and choices, but the reality is that all MOBA games are like that, even LoL. They've each got their massive differences and interpretations of the genre but at the end of the day they're both hugely tactical games. I don't enjoy LoL but the last time I tried playing I had a similar experience as you're having with Dota: things were happening on levels higher than I was seeing, it was frustrating and didn't "feel right".

    The two things I like most about LoL are the unique 5th abilities, and the shop. Dota 2 could learn a thing or two from LoL's shop. It's organized into completely arbitrary categories which confuse even a relatively hardcore Dota 2 player like myself, half of the items I know the location of out of memory rather than actually looking at the categories. I've tried using the search bar at the advice of fellow players but even that's pointless: How is a player such as yourself supposed to use a search bar to find an item when you don't know what the different items are or do?

    I really hope that they find a new layout by release. As far as new player training modes go that's supposed to be one of Valve's big additions, can only wait and see what gets added at this point. My bets are that Valve will use their extensive beta time to fine tune the bots and a tutorial mode as one of their last pieces of the puzzle.

    Item balance and choice is a huge subset, there could be any number of small factors and reasons for any given it's stats, but I'll go over my interpretation since balance and number-crafting is one of my favorite parts of a game.

    In an ideal world where things are perfectly balanced, Dota 2's items are based on a few main aspects of balance, I'll keep it basic in case anyone else can learn from it:
    -Cost. Obvious at first, but the value of cost is not exactly linear. A high cost item will be tough to get since you lose gold on death, the very expensive [single, not built] items are typically disproportionately strong.
    -Item slots. Each item obviously takes a slot, this is important because it allows for changes in cost/power ratios. Often times the cheapest items are highly cost effective because they'll take up more space. For example, Iron Branch is +1 to all stats and costs 50g, Circlet is +2 to all stats and 185g (Or similar cost). It'd be more cost effective to get two Iron Branches, but you'll take up twice as much space.
    -Effect. What it does. There are a large number of effects such as stats, damage, health, mana, lifesteal, evasion, chance on hit, attack speed, et cetera. Each one is supposed to be balanced against each other for the most part. To get to your question, you'll typically get more damage per gold than stats, because stats give more than just damage. Similarly, you'll typically get more health or mana from items that give these effects directly than you will with items giving Strength or Intelligence because you don't get the other advantages of these stats. The less direct stats like Lifesteal are more variable in potency depending on other stats, typically they're too costly for their effect when you don't have stats to support them but very cost effective when you do.

    Some more indirect aspects of item balance:
    -Building items. Just like LoL, they typically are greater than the sum of their parts. Typically the more components the more "reward" you get for completing it. Their value can further be altered by whether or not they can be broken down into their component parts.
    -Recipes. Items with recipes are always greater than the sum of their parts. Since the recipe is useless without the other items it's typically more cost effective than other items, and often have special features. For example, a hypothetical item consisting of a +5 Damage item, a +5 Strength item and another +5 Damage item may result in a +15 Damage, +5 Strength item. However, a hypothetical item of a +5 Damage item, +5 Strength item and recipes of the same cost as the +5 Damage item may result in a +15 Damage, +5 Strength item with a 10% slow on it.
    -Shop availability. Items available from the basic shop are easy to get, and therefore less valuable. Items only gotten from the side shop or secret shop are often a fair deal more powerful since they must be retrieved at a risk.
    -Orb effects. Any weapon with an orb effect (there's a section for them in the shop) will not work with the effect of any other orb weapon. This allows them to be more powerful since there's no risk of a hero getting multiple, or if they do it won't be at full power.
    -Use effects. These are hard to talk about in terms of balance. They're design to be some sort of effect such as a dispell or temporary damage boost which is considered equivalent to the cost of the item when compared to other effects. The actual value of a use effect item depends on, well, how you use it.

    That's gone way beyond your question and still is only touching the surface of items as a whole, but I'll save this material for perhaps writing a Dota 2 guide in the future.
     
  4. Whindog

    Whindog New Member

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    There is nothing wrong with the dota2 shop......when uunderstand what it is your heros role is and what items your team requires......then you may appreciate it a bit more.....

    Your example for windrunner.....she is a inteligence semi carry that can be played as a farming semi carry, support, ganker, pusher, initiator it all depends what your trying to do, the tricky thing with windrunner for noobs is that items on her vary drastically. But dont think that wind runner is a carry, her auto attack damage is poor as with attack speed late game is crap also due her being intelegence.


    Dota isnt LoL.......AP isnt in this game, attack dmg and armor are the only things that scale.....magic/spell dmg does not. (Hence WR semi carry status.....her power shot mid game is awesome......after 40min........nowhere near as effective unless your pushing lanes, you become an initiator for team fights late game with your shakle shot.)

    P.S - lifesteal on windrunner is a waste... you want to help your team get a mek, ull have it much faster thatn your hard suport will, and it will allow them to ward and counter ward faster.

    Item choices in Dota are far more situation dependant than in LoL....the games are completely different. In dota you have to relise that every hero has a role and is viable for that role (LoL has alot of joke champs that you will never see in competitive play)...and the in game client dosnt exactly tell you very well what that role is. Death Prophet for instance, is not a support....in no way is she support. But the in game description says she is.

    And with you Juggernaught reference.....Lol.....we have all been there, I remember the same thought process you ahve now......you need to look at his items lvl1.....if he has boots, just LoL....he's a noob.....play behind your wave, dont go up close to him and harrass the crap out of him as he has no regen.......when he is copetent and goes normal regen/stats opening, harras him when he is farming, again dont get to close, if you stun him b4 he spins, he is dead.

    With his ult.....never be alone, make sure at least some creeps are around. If its just u his ult is focused purly on you. And the yea, your dead. But remember jugg's hp is pathetic, you harass him in lane, restrict his farm and he is useless later. 1 stun is all you need on him.

    Hope that helps you a bit. The 2 games are diff, so play whatever you prefer. Dota is much harder to pick up than LoL. Items can counter everything. And there are alot more actives. And every hereo is viable in Dota, not so much in LoL.
     
  5. vdbswong

    vdbswong It's a Hedgehod

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    I'm not really sure how you can justify this?

    From what i understand of you're post, you're saying that as long as i know what items i need, then i can find them in the shop?

    Which is a little bit self-serving really... as the point is that since i'm new to the game, i'm not familiar with the items and what they do. I may know what specific stat i need to build (e.g. Agility, Damage etc.), but that doesn't really help my quest in getting around the shop.

    Like Sloth said, unless you know the name (and can therefore search it), know the icon, or the location off by heart, the shop is just daunting for any newcomers, whether or not they're experienced in the genre or not.

    Can you elaborate exactly why her Attack Damage and Attack Speed are poor?

    I thought the whole idea of the Str/Ag/Int system was to make "unconventional" roles since they scale off of stats, rather than LoL which is just "AD = Autoattack, AP = Spells" (for the most part at least).

    Since Windrunner will gain Damage by stacking Intelligence just as much as say Drow Ranger would get by stacking Agility (obv. not taking into account Drow gets passive Agility for her "Ultimate").

    And as for the attack speed issue, surely the whole point of Windrunner is that you don't build Attack Speed/Agility because her Ult already gives her all the Attack Speed she needs? (Max. Attack Speed against your Target).

    I assume that means "+Damage" isn't added onto spells as i thought then?

    Which i guess is something else that isn't really obvious :|.

    TBH, i was looking for something similar to a Bloodthirster from LoL... something that would give me straight up damage + lifesteal on the side.

    LoL has a few Joke champs that haven't been seen in Competitive play, but going through the IEM Hannover Picks/Ban list and couple it with my knowledge of previous tournaments, at least 90% of the Champion Roster has been picked or banned in Competition play at some point in the game.

    The ones that have never been picked or banned are generally those that have seen a lot at lower ELO, typically regarded as pubstompers due to their ability to snowball when fed (unlike a competitive match where there may only have a total of 10 kills the entire game).

    It's the Juggernaut Bot, so i guess the dev that coded him is a noob? lol

    Mainly it's hard when he's supported in Top Lane by whoever it is that decides to stun me (and thus, allow Juggernaut to close the gap a spin me to death).

    Your comment about Actives was something that i'd forgotten to bring up as well.

    I was surprised by the number of Active Items that were present, from the cheaper items all the way up to the more expensive ones.

    LoL still hasn't really "caught up" in this regard as they only started adding Active Items a while back, but it's something the devs are keen on doing (the issue is they don't want to add too many items and overpopulate the game with them).

    I personally hate Actives since i always forget to use them, since unlike DotA, you don't normally buy an item for the Active, but often the Passive ability and the Active is simply a bonus (the few that disagree are probably Shurelya's Reverie - Active Speed Boost and Zhonya's Hourglass - Active Invulnerability).
     
  6. Phalanx

    Phalanx Needs more dragons and stuff.

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    How are people getting beta keys? I signed up a long while ago but have heard nothing. Is there another way?
     
  7. DLDeadbolt

    DLDeadbolt Space Cadet

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    PM inbound

    Been trying for ages to get in, from FB, to forums to draws (there were a few auction-y type things a while back but I refuse to pay to play a beta).


    Maybe El2k can spare you his other invite, else try www.steamgifts.com Earn points by other people putting up games for giveaway, and use those points to enter the draw. Been on there for over a week now, entered dozens of draws and never got it.
     
  8. Phalanx

    Phalanx Needs more dragons and stuff.

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    I would love if someone has a spare.
     
  9. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    I played dota 1 for years and coming to the Dota 2 shop the first time was annoying as hell

    In dota 1, they had seperate taverns you clicked on and it was so much easier to map item locations to their exact place in the taverns, all in your head. Once you play a few games and get to know common items its all really simple.

    But dota 2... I couldnt find a thing the first couple games it was ridiculous.
     
  10. nchhabs

    nchhabs www.twitch.tv/dracaXL

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    Idk, I just use the search bar myself - it's pretty quick; I've bound 'shop' to Z, and 'buy quickbuy' to X, which speeds things up further.
     
  11. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Well-Known Member

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    Good idea actually
     
  12. Chris1554

    Chris1554 New Member

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    I got a beta inv today! Signed up for it around 2-3 months ago or something. Do I get a spare invite with the beta? I read awhile ago you get 2 extra keys or something but I can't see them.
     
  13. Kiytan

    Kiytan Shiny

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    If you look in your steam inventory/steam trade thing, they should be there if you have any
     
  14. Sloth

    Sloth #yolo #swag

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    I'll just quote you to give my thoughts as well, easier than quoting Whindog and making sure I don't say the same thing.
    Yep, the shop is just one of the many features of Dota 2 which are fine if you know the game.

    What, exactly, is a "Caster" item? What hero uses a "Caster" item? And if a hero is a "Caster" do they only need items from the "Caster" section of the shop? The organizational structure of the shop is idealistic at best, it assumes that the player will already have an understanding of what items are in what sections, what each item does, and what items are good for any given hero. Unfortunately, not everyone has this knowledge. I have a couple hundred hours played of Dota 2 and can't tell you where each item is. Tell me what stats it has and I can try to tell you but it's a guess at best.

    Compare that to LoL. If I know what an item does I know where I can find it. Or, if I don't know what weapon I want but I know what I want from my next item I know where to look to find all items which will meet the requirement, all of them together and easy to compare. I've only played about 20 hours of LoL and can easily navigate the shop.

    That one comes down to your idea of obvious. From a LoL perspective, no, it's not obvious. This is an area where Valve again seem to be relying on WC3: if you've played WC3 you'll know what all of the stats do.

    Another fun situation where you're left looking through the shop to find something which fits, possibly missing other items which would be better suited. Which of the sections fits Lifesteal and Damage? From an uneducated perspective maybe Weapons? Orb effects? But who knows: maybe something in the "Caster" section will fit your needs as well since you're an Int hero? You have to guess and check to find out.

    I don't like to delve into hero balance since I don't like sitting around watching competitions, would rather be playing, but suffice to say no game is going to be perfect. Dota 2 has plenty of junk and OP heroes just like any other game. It's no small coincidence when Anti-Mage, Invoker, Night Stalker, Furion, et cetera all get banned first and equally no small coincidence when no one picks heroes like Alchemist or Batrider.

    People say every hero is viable, and I agree. But to that I say: so why doesn't anyone play the weaker but viable heroes? The answer is because flexibility is a major part of balance. The number of situations a hero is viable in plays a huge role in determining a hero's value.

    Adding on with Whindog, Juggernaut is one of those heroes that will completely destroy you until you figure out how to get away. He's also well known as being rollface easy to play because of this. Staying away, playing safe, keeping near creeps when he has his ult, all good advice.

    I definitely wouldn't call buying boots first noob, though. With everything, it depends on how you're playing. Jugg laning with a stunning or slowing support has some awesome gank potention but it's high risk unless you have another hard carry farming. The support should be getting consumables to make up for the Jugg's lack of regen and to keep mana at 100% for spin readiness. It can pay off even against good opponents, you just have to play extremely aggressive.
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2012
  15. Chris1554

    Chris1554 New Member

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    I guess they stopped it, don't have any in my inventory.
     
  16. el2k

    el2k Well-Known Member

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    Both keys gone. Sorry to anyone still looking and GL to you two giving it a go!
     
  17. Whindog

    Whindog New Member

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    Ok so i see your point with the shop. It really is each to their own on that one. Maybe if they included a search feature that meant you could serch items for there stats would help out new players.

    Ok so onto the stats stuff, ill use your LoL terminology to help make it clearer. First ill run over what the stats mean. (You can see it if you hold your mouse over your attributes in the ingame hud): NOTE: Whatever your hero's main attribute is, they will gain +1 AD for every attrribute point they have. (to increase AD on str heros u get strength, agi for agi, and int for int)

    Every point in the following gives you:
    STR - 19 health, 0.03 HP/sec
    AGI - Increased attack spd by 1, 7agi = 1armor
    INT - 13 mana, 0.04 Mana/sec

    So as you can see, this is why AGI heros are generally your hard carrys. Not only does every point in AGI increase there AD by +1 but also there attack spd.

    In the windrunner example, in order to increase her dmg output you must get INT, however this is no good for ATKSPD. Drow, not only increases her AD with AGI, her ATTSPD increases thus further increasing her DPS (damage per second).

    Spell damage is exactly what is stated in the description. Nothing adds to it, however there are some sills and items that increase magic resist and increase magic damage. Discounting those, the damage done is what is in the description. (NOTE: all hero's have a natural 25% spell resistance, this is also shown hovering mouse over attributes.)

    So for windrunner.....Force staff is an awesome item on her, not only for the active to escape or initiate, but 10dmg, 10int, 10attspd. Massive DPS improvment and an escape mechanic. So really she gets 20 extra dmg from this item. 10flat dmg, +10 dmg from INT, and increased attspd further increase DPS.

    Actives are alot more important in DOTA than LoL. Everythig can be countered with items, there a carry thats running riot, get Heaven Halberd and disarm him for 4 sec!!!! 4 sec is huge. Or a cheapre option is ghost scepter, then nuke the sh** out of him. But again, you need to get your normal stats up so you need items to compliment that role. Euls and Scyth of vyse are good disable items that also boost INT heros stats nicely, and move speed in Euls case.

    However even if you dont worry to much about actives there are a few items that you MUST know about and use there actives.

    Black King Bar - Magic Immunity!!!!!!!! And nice stats....but Magic immunity (yes this means you cant be stunned!!) and incase you missed it....MAGIC IMMUNITY!!!!!!!!!

    Scyth of Vyse - aka Sheepstick, turns them into a pig for 3.5 sec. (awesome stats for INT casters to)

    Mekansm - 250hp to all in area around caster.

    Pipe of Insight - 400 Magic block to caster and all in area around caster for 10sec (after 400 magic dmg received the sheild is gone)

    The last 2 are essential and should be gotten every game when playing at a decent level (BUT NOT ON THE SAME HERO, its really risky to do it.....but then again in pubs, noone wants these items as they dont do dmg). For the pipe make sure you all group up then use it....BEFORE initiating. Mek will keep you and your team mates alive longer in a team fight, and the passive regen aura is awesome to.
     
  18. freshsandwiches

    freshsandwiches Can I do science to it?

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    Yay. I got invited to the beta after registering ages ago. No keys to invite anyone else unfortunately though.
     
  19. nchhabs

    nchhabs www.twitch.tv/dracaXL

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    Hey guys, Deadbolt and myself have been playing in party for a bit against bots and humans, just wondering if anyone wanted to join us (we're not good by any means, but we're okay for noobs :))
     
  20. DLDeadbolt

    DLDeadbolt Space Cadet

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    Shut up Draca, you noob
     

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