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Other Hi-fi and AV junkies anonymous

Discussion in 'General' started by Mister_Tad, 16 Jun 2020.

  1. Trance

    Trance Two steps forward, one step back

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    With all those extra boards (particularly the top red 'control' board) in there I would be surprised if it doesn't 'know' it is a 2 channel amp.

    In the datasheet it isn't explicit whether the Standby/Protect Control pin just turns off the amplifier output, or the 500ASPs power supply as well. From the block diagrams it would appear to be just the output stage, which would suggest the control board is probably holding this low permanently to disable the 500ASPs output. This could be overridden by just pulling out that pin from the connector (pin 3, connector P2), which would keep it high all the time.

    I can't tell from the picture if P4 (Speaker outputs) is connected at all on the 500ASP.

    My suggestion would be to pull out P2 from the 500ASP, then power up the amp and see if it plays normally. If so the control board obviously doesn't care that it is disconnected from the 500ASP. Next attach some binding posts to P4 and a RCA connection to pin 9 & 7 on P2, turn the amp on and see if it plays. If it does, reattach P2, pull out just pin 3 from that connector, solder on the RCA to the input board and permanently attach the binding posts! Although it looks like you may need to do some metalwork to open that up...

    It's strange, the input board appears to have facility to turn the RCAs into a balanced input to feed into the amp, but they have chosen not to populate it on any of the channels.

    Otherwise you could always ask the manufacturer if they would upgrade it to the 3 channel for a price?
     
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  2. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    Me being me, I'd be tempted to throw connectors into the missing sockets and see what happened.

    My suspicion is that nothing would happen, otherwise if you searched for ways to self-upgrade this unit to the 5ch unit you'd find some folk out there who've done it already. Hell, I found some folk that'd turned what is essentially my MAD-TA10 into an actual tube amp.

    Of course, that temptation would be tempered by however much it cost as a unit (And thus, however much it would be to replace it) and seeing what, if any, smd items were missing from one channel to the next. From this angle and this picture it doesn't look like much is missing from a connector that is there to the space where one isn't.

    However, I'm also not familiar with the product line. Is the 5ch version in a different chassis in any way? If not, then there's a high probability that it's just different boards and backing plates. If the 5ch is taller or something then I'd expect more electronics that aren't present here.
     
  3. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

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    Guessing demo isn't an option?

    Considering the era and the market positioning... the RS6 is both newer and the Silver series is perhaps half-a-rung up the pricing ladder from the DM601, one could expect it to be all around better.

    That said the 601 is a lovely speaker IMO... and era and price point aren't always the most reliable indicators of sound quality as much as the marketers would like us all to think differently.

    You'll get more lows out of the RS6 for sure, I've always found the 601s a bit light in that regard.
    Though subjective, the RS6 is better looking to me, which is important too, IMO.

    One of my litmus tests for an uncertain/unheard "upgrade" has always been - do I have a use for the replaced component, or is it just a straight swap? I.e. if you can use the 601s to upgrade/create a secondary system, then the RS6s are an upgrade even if you get them and find it's more of a side-grade in practice.

    You could be right there - when connected to an NHT processor via ethernet, it will switch channels on/off dynamically depending on what's needed for whatever you're playing back, so the capability is definitely there.

    It isn't - I took a bunch of close-ups for reference before I closed it back up, didn't want to flood the forums with all of them though.

    I also found that on the 5ch model, the 500ASPs are wired directly to the speaker terminals, which is promising for my intentions, with just the 500As being plumbed through the larger red PCB. This makes sense as I could only find one extra solder point on the PCB for speaker terminals.

    There's isn't a 3ch version, just a 2 and 5 (which is why this config seems odd to me). Alas they got out of the electronics game and are only doing speakers now.

    Aside from the amp modules themselves, and the "missing" components on the large red board, the 5ch looks to be the same. There's another 500ASP where the two 500As are here, and then three 500A underneath the board at the back.

    And as such there's one 500ASP in that amp that's both used and must be also powering 2x 500A - and it's rated at the same power per channel, all driven... though power at 4ohm isn't specified, so suspect there is a power supply limitation that creeps in somewhere.

    I started watching "See" last night and got immediately quite bored, so used the opportunity to do further research... basically trawling through forum posts, and has already turned up some useful info. There's a loooong thread on AVS about the P5, with some discussions about the internals (and involving someone that appears to have been involved with the design) that I'm partway through and will carry on today.

    Thanks for the input so far gents - I'm feeling good about this :D
     
  4. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

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    So research completed, few interesting points, but ultimately a swing and a miss...

    - Apparently the 500A on it's own has no protection circuits etc whereas the 500ASP does. This is why the binding posts on the 5ch are wired directly from the ASP, but the As are sent through the big red board, and commercial implementations of these modules will all do something similar. You can wire it up directly for DIY and everything will probably be fine, and if the amp did one well then I'm already on the market for a 3ch anyway, but I'm not about to risk grenading a speaker worth many times more than the amp, so crossed out just using the modules for DIY.

    - The weird configuration was to ensure identical performance of both channels, whereas an ASP+A would not. Using an ASP for power supply only was an expensive option, but in a relatively low volume amp, it was less cost/risk/time than designing a dedicated power supply with the same performance.

    - Bench tests - both channels, 0.1% - 260wpc @ 8ohm, 350wpc @ 4ohm. The modules are rated for 500@4, so power delivery is the bottleneck as impedance drops... like basically any other amp ever. So this takes the remainder of the wind out of my sails...still no slouch, and can't see it would make a difference most of the time, but this is for HT, B&W 800s are thirsty, and don't want it to be running out of juice and breaking up when the crash/bang/wallop starts happening.

    - Other point I found interesting was that on the 5ch model, one ASP does not provide power for 3 channels as I assumed - both ASPs provide shared power for all 5 channels - so given that most commonly two of those channels would just be tickling the rears, this largely removes any limitations due to power delivery with the L/C/R. That said long-term reliability for the 5ch model appears to be atrocious, so glad I don't have one.

    So that little project is dead, but it's still been fun while it lasted. The project of figuring out a 3ch amp to replace it is not.

    Since I'm in an amp-opening mood, decided I should rectify one of the binding posts on my Pathos amp that's been a bit loose for a while.

    Gratuitous nude shot of the underside...

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    A shame, but at least no equipment was harmed in the making of these discoveries.
     
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  6. MiNiMaL_FuSS

    MiNiMaL_FuSS ƬӇЄƦЄ ƁЄ ƇƠƜƧ ӇЄƦЄ.

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    Thanks Tad, that's helpful.

    Know anyone that does some decent value terminated cables?

    My old QED silver anniversary XT is too short :(
     
  7. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

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    I have what I believe to be a 10ft pair of Audioquest Type-6, terminated with airloc bananas, if that's something that appeals.

    As it happens today I used it for the first time (was part of a bundle thing that I didn't need at the time), and tried to see if it was better or worse than the van Damme 6mm I'm using.

    I immediately noticed an improvement... And subsequently switched back and forth and tbh I'm not sure now, which probably means it's much of a muchness.

    I switched back to the van dammes because the spades on them are more practical for the pathos.

    These are pretty though, which IMO is important in a speaker cable - nice fabric weave and shiny banana plugs.

    EDIT: I could also recommend B&W CDM-7NT if you're looking to upgrade your 601s... :worried:
     
    Last edited: 28 Jun 2020
  8. MiNiMaL_FuSS

    MiNiMaL_FuSS ƬӇЄƦЄ ƁЄ ƇƠƜƧ ӇЄƦЄ.

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    I would be interested - downside I bi-wire with the avr300, so actually need 2 pairs of cable!

    I'm picking up the Monitor audio RS6's tonight...pretty happy as after I sell me dm601's and my sub I will break even :)
     
  9. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

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    Bi-wire, or bi-amp?

    IMO the first is a waste of perfectly good cable.

    Bi-amping is different... though on an AVR with a shared power supply, the PSU is going to be the botteneck in headroom, bi-amped or not.
     
  10. MiNiMaL_FuSS

    MiNiMaL_FuSS ƬӇЄƦЄ ƁЄ ƇƠƜƧ ӇЄƦЄ.

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    Bi-amp. Using the 6th and 7th speaker connections, works very well on Arcam AVR units.
     
  11. MiNiMaL_FuSS

    MiNiMaL_FuSS ƬӇЄƦЄ ƁЄ ƇƠƜƧ ӇЄƦЄ.

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    The RS6s are in and bi-amp'd, been doing some listening this evening.

    Really impressed with the vocals and the detail in the midrange in particular is spectacular. I've even picked up some extra voices in tracks I've listened to my whole life!

    I do miss the colour, particularly at the lower-mid of the DM601s produced though, but I imagine I'll adjust with a little time.

    The extra detail has made one of my favourite songs worse though as it was quite a messy track and the RS6s do pickup the flaws much more easily! But then that's the artists fault!
     
  12. saspro

    saspro IT monkey

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    SAE would be the top choice that's global. However it's the sort of career that experience & connections are more important that loads of qualifications. She's most likely be better off getting a low level job at a studio & working up (whilst getting her face known) if that's what she wants to do.
     
  13. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

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    That's because Arcam has always been generous with the power supplies in their AVRs :thumb:

    I'm bi-amping my centre from my AVR at the moment to good effect, and keep meaning to bi-amp my surrounds as well... less because I need to, mainly just because I could. I installed 4-core cable to them because it was barely more costly than 2 and nothing bad ever happened from having an extra run, just need to re-terminate the AVR ends and swap the wall plate at the speaker for a 4-post one... if I ever get around to it before we move house.

    I misguidedly bi-amped my fronts with my first AVR (both chronologically, and from a fisher price "my first" sort of view) which was another story... it suffered from a severe lack of headroom with 5ch, and if anything bi-amping made it worse.

    So that sounds like a win overall, mainly?
    Are you using room correction, or would that help with the negatives?

    Back onto cables - worth checking out Mark Grant and Blue Jeans cables if you want something pre-terminated that doesn't delve into audiophile tropes in their marketing, various no-nonsense quality cables from Van Damme and Belden at prices that can't be much more than the raw materials to make them.
     
  14. Cheapskate

    Cheapskate Insane? or just stupid?

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    Hi. I think I might be a junkie too, but for different reasons:
    [​IMG]
    I need to get this on the wall before the dresser is crushed.
    Not pictured are heaps of copies. I got rid of roughly 800 tapes not to long ago. I realized I couldn't make out the lyrics they were so badly made. The digital collection is getting unmanageable too.
     
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  15. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Cat Lies Down on Broadway

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  16. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

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    :baby:

    This man wins at lockdown projects.

    For a one off, that fit, finish and attention to detail is phenomenal.
     
  17. liratheal

    liratheal Sharing is Caring

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    Indeed.

    I'd very much like to see more of the cable routing, though, it looks very neat in the little glimpses offered.
     
  18. jinq-sea

    jinq-sea 'write that down in your copy book' Super Moderator

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    Leema make some interesting kit. I've met Lee Taylor from there a couple of times. Nice chap!
     
  19. saspro

    saspro IT monkey

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    Ooops

    Ollo Audio S4X's have just arrived on my desk.
     
  20. Yaka

    Yaka Well-Known Member

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    not long ago i built a 3ch ncore nc400 amp to power my fronts L/C/R i say built but it was very easy to put together and case was already predrilled. its been brilliant till the heatwave we had over a week ago and it began over heating. so need to figure out a way to wire a fan in to extract the air out.

    [​IMG]

    also am looking for a Beefy case with heat sinks at the sides for 11/12 channel power amp build anyone got any suggestions?
     
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