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Displays Is IPS all that?

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Pookeyhead, 17 Jul 2010.

  1. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    I've been weighing up the pros and cons of IPS vs VA recently.

    I've personally evaluated 5 IPS panels now, and all of them have very poor black performance. This got me thinking... what's the big deal with IPS? Viewing angle? Well.. A decent VA panel is not far behind. Gamut? With panels like the Eizo SX3031 you get 97% of Adobe RGB98, so that rules that out as well. In fact, quite a few professional panels use VA, and after my experience with the craptastic Dell 3008FWP yesterday, I'm beginning to understand why.

    Out of all the "limitations" of non IPS panels what is the one that would most impact you?

    Just think about this for a minute.

    Viewing angle? Even my old Dell 2405 could be turned 70 degrees away from me with almost imperceptible shifts, so realistically, is any more needed? When have you ever sat at your computer with the screen angled 70 degrees away from you?

    Gamut? It's a misconception that IPS means wide gamut. Gamut, or colourspace is a result mainly of the panel illumination, NOT the panel itself. Plenty of high end VA panels exceed the gamut of most IPS panels. So.. you don't even need IPS for that.

    Pixel response? IPS is generally slower than VA, but as you can find examples of pretty much all panel types with response times of 10ms or less... who really cares apart from people who just game (and they CERTAINLY don't need or even want a IPS panel).

    Black level? Nope... IPS are the worst of the bunch.


    What does that leave us with? Errr.. nothing really. After being disappointed with the U2410 for it's inability to calibrate properly in custom colour mode, I ruled that out. The pixel dot pitch of the U2711 is too small considering it's actually hardly any taller than my 16:10 24" panel.. that rules that one out. The completely crap Dell 3008FWP... well.. I can only imagine that Dell measured their viewing angles on a bright signal source because once luminance levels drop below 40cd/m, I've seen better viewing angles on a 10 year old laptop!.

    Nothing I've seen yet in the IPS sector has even come close to my FWP2405.. so that made me think.. what is it about the 2405 that I'd like to change.

    A: Size. I want a big panel.
    B: Gamut. It's too narrow to work on Adobe RGB98 profiles images.
    C: Lack of harware LUT.


    That's it. I can get a 30" VA panel. I can get a wide gamut VA panel. So why accept poor black levels? I can get a VA panel with 12bit hardware LUT.

    No reason. I think I'll give this IPS malarky a miss. I've no idea who would benefit from a panel who's only appreciable advantage is viewing angle, yet have that at the expense of black level. I certainly can't imagine why any professional would want that. I know I don't.

    Is IPS a marketing ploy? Just the next "must have" thing? I'm beginning to think so. I can see why you'd want one in a iPad... but a desktop monitor?

    I'm seriously considering another VA panel for my next screen.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Ph4ZeD

    Ph4ZeD New Member

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    Good to see we are up to thread number three with you crying about your Dell screen. Maybe if you created another ten, you could be confident that every single Bit Tech reader had heard about your problem?
     
    Ficky Pucker likes this.
  3. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Harsh phazed. I can see Pook's point, and 2 threads aren't beyond reason on this subject imo. One is product specific the other is about a technology as a whole.
     
  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    Wind your neck in. I want subjective opinions about the advantages of IPS over PVA.. the thread isn't about specific brands. So I took the opportunity to get a dig in about it... big deal, so would you if you'd roasted almost £1200 on a piece of rubbish.

    If you don't want to read it, feel free to.. well, not read it.

    Exactly. IPS vs VA... not brand specific. I could bolt in onto the end of the 3008 thread and edit the title, but it's not really about one specific product, and there are already a load of posts in that thread regarding one specific monitor. It's not the same subject. The "third" thread was in the Scan forum asking for a refund.

    If you've nothing constructive to add to the thread, then please leave.

    If however, you have opinions on high end VA panels... then please stay and carry on posting.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2010
  5. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    It's rather more expensive, but have you thought of getting a 30" PVA panel over the Dell? Being a bit of an Eizo fanboy and given my general lust for big monitors the SX3031W looks pretty win.

    Having said that it's significantly more than the Dell.
     
  6. LeMaltor

    LeMaltor >^_^

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    Don't tell people it's crap, just try and sell it? :p
     
  7. Ljs

    Ljs Well-Known Member

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    I too will be soon upgrading my monitor (still on a 4:3 19") and have been lusting over an IPS.

    But the point I quoted on you is very true - I don't move around that much in front of my monitor while i'm working and I haven't noticed it move much around in front of me!

    I guess viewing angle is a bigger issue the large the monitor, but I can't really see it bothering me too much - only wanting around a 24". Worth the extra money? Not sure, I don't actually have too much experience with IPS panels...

    IPS seems to get a lot of love on these forums, not sure how much of it is warranted truely.

    Should be interesting when Goodbytes reads this thread!
     
  8. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    After looking at Pook's screen I'd stick to PVA, for 24"+ really. That's only my opinion though, and I haven't seen any of these screens at anything more than a glance in the real world.
     
  9. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    Depends what you buy not all ips suffer the poor black level issues you mension

    I use the hp 2475w at home and it's a very good screen for around £300

    The moniter I use at work is the lacie 730 with hood thing it's perhaps the best moniter out there problem is it's about £2000. And it doesn't suffer from any problems I've ever noticed in my adobe editing ( movies photos ) don't have any games to test it with.

    I know for a home computer screen with the price of flat LCD tvs dropping fast it's just as convenient to buy a good 24 inch tv.
     
  10. bagman

    bagman Well-Known Member

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    i think that not all IPS panels are good but some are absolutly stunning look at the dell U2410 and the NEC EA231WMi compare them with a VA panel and it will get beaten and i find that colours are more important than black and white
     
  11. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Black levels are very eye catching to me, especially when playing games or watching dark movies.
     
  12. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Yup I agree with Pokey. (your not dreaming Pokey.) I am not going to argue against you.

    Here is my view:
    Pokey your career requires you in having the best display possible in existence. Nothing wrong here.
    Your monitor that you are looking at.. like the high-end ones of EIZO, where it even comes with uniform backlit, and other fancy menchy stuff, cost more than many people here computers, even sometimes twice the price of a computer.

    My brother has a TN panel (well used to have soon, he is changing it), a Samsung 2443BW-HAS. The problem with a large screen on TN panel, is that to get a proper view the screen you need to constantly adjust it as you barely move. Hence why test like these:
    http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php
    Completely fails. Their is not one point where you can position yourself to see everything perfectly.

    When he used to call me to show something to me, the only way I can see the screen properly is to behind him. If I am on the side, it's O.K. But, not very nice.

    TN panels (I have others) provide this bland colors.... you want to boost the saturation (kinda the only thing you can do with these monitors.. even then in some you don't even have that luxury). Of course, doing so make everything cartoon'ish.

    TN panels are notorious for back-light bleeding. Every-time you play a game in a dark environment, it's there to bug you (a comment from my brother on his older LG TN screen).
    When I designed a simple webpage for myself (for my software), or simply viewing one, the bleeding issue (mixed with view angle) is annoying, as everything has a gradient feel to it.

    Another problem with back light bleeding, and this is the common one, is anyone that view a wide screen movie, where you have black bars at the top and at the bottom. You see it there... standing there and annoying you.

    IPS panel, while not perfect, solves the above issues.

    You don't have the BEST colors, nor the BEST black (you need a CRT of this, no other provide better blacks than these screen technology), but they are better than TN panels.
    View angle of 178 degree is a bit excessive, indeed, but at least you don't need to adjust the screen anymore, you don't have the gradient effect on everything, and you can sit on your bed like a couch and see a movie without constantly adjusting the screen to your position until it's perfect.

    You don't have true 0 back light bleeding of course. But it's is, in most IPS displays significantly better than TN counter part.

    This is why in my point of view, IPS panel is the base line of computer monitors. It's NOT FOR professionals in any shape or form, BUT at least it's a screen that anyone can enjoy to use.

    Now yes some monitor are a bit too expensive. I know that the normal price of the Dell U2410 is 750$ Canadian.. for THAT price.. I don't think it's particularly worth it. BUT Dell almost always puts it at 500$ Canadian (and this is the price I paid). For a bit more than a TN 24ionch panel, I get all the connection one can possibly need (all it's missing a TV Tuner), solid metal stand with mechanical system for easy smooth adjustment, fully adjustable, and well it's a IPS panel. And it comes with a pre-calibarted Adobe RGB and sRGB color.

    About this color calibration thingie. Yes I know Pookey, you calibrate the screen every month or even more, yes you use color profiles. The Color Calibration that offers some monitors like the Dell one, means that the monitor has a setting in the monitor (Adobe RGB or sRGB) with what one call proper (ie: not store shelf settings). It always nice to get a monitor where it's not at Store shelf settings and you have to play with the calibration option to get the color proper to some level. You get the monitor out, plug-it in, go in the option, and pick the calibrated color profile, and your done! An excellent display for no professionals.

    Now I know what your going to say. "Dell says it's for professional". And I say, "Dell says the same for their TN panels." All they means is that you have adjustable stand in metal with metal mechanical system and nothing glossy. Hence why the importance in reading reviews.


    Now I know what maybe Pokey you will trash my monitor comparison sheet, because you like to treat it as you punching bag. But to be clear. My monitor comparison sheet simply puts the manufacture specs against others. I said it on the sheet itself, and on every post. READ REVIEWS! I think I'll put is in red, big and bold.
    The idea, is to show popular recommendation here, who also are well reviewed to compare the features. That is all. (i think I'll add a note like this, just be clear with everyone, and specify that not higher the numbers the better automatically).
     
  13. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    ?? You mean the FWP3008? That's gone. I took it back and got a refund.


    LOL... Indeed. He gets a bit evangelical over IPS screens ;)

    You make a good point though. Is this a problem with large IPS panels only? The smallest one I've ever used was 24".


    I'm just wondering now if it's use specific. Despite my complaints with the big Dell, when it was showing a normal desktop, or a a game, or anything that was bright it was awesome. However, when the majority of the screen is dark, that's when the issue was noticable. When on review sites they have the photographs of the screen at various angles, there's always a bright, full colour image on the screen as well, and hence get great reviews. However, the monitor threads on Hard Forums tend to be populated by more graphic artists, photographers and video editor, and on there, backlight bleeding seems to be a hot topic with IPS screens, even the NEC LCD3090WQXi I was considering.

    Also, cross referencing all this against A/V forums, TVs with IPS panels get a proper bashing, whereas S-VA panels are the ones that seem to get the thumbs up. Possibly again, this is down to the uses they are put to. Watching a movie on a 42" panel with the same problems I posted in the You Tube video in the other thread would drive anyone mad I would think.


    You mention the LaCie being perfect? Well.. it uses a S-VA panel, not a IPS panel. Yet another £2K plus panel eschewing IPS in favour of S-VA. There's gotta be a reason for this.



    I agree. The U2410 appeared to be nice, but I was using it in bright conditions where the light bleed would have been less apparent, so can't be certain about that one. The reson I rejected the U2410 was because in custom colour mode, it calibrated badly. You have to use the Adobe98 preset, and calibrate it within that, and for some reason the gamma is then miles out.

    Which is another thing.. I was beginning to wonder whether it was just me, and I was going mad. I think some peopel are mode bothered than others in the same way some people can game on a monitor with terrible lag, and some can't. I was happy gaming on my FWP2405 which is one of THE worst panels for input lag.

    :jawdrop: Really?

    Which is exactly why I'm concerned about this headlong rush to all things IPS. If every manufacturer jumps onto this bandwagon when in fact it's NOT the best technology to use, I'll find it hard to find a suitable panel in a few years time, and therefore end up HAVING to pay a fortune for something I'm not happy with.


    We've already covered the TN issues in that other trhead. Viewing angles suck with TN... we accept that, and it's an acceptable trade off for a gamer, especially on smaller panels.

    Some are good though.. however, VA panels have superb colours, especially wide gamut ones. There is a LaCie P-VA panel in one of the darkrooms at college and it's awesome. So many seriously high end monitor still use VA panels, especially S-VA. These aren't old monitors. IPS panels were available at the time of their inception, so it does beg the question why did they use them?


    Not in my case it didn't LOL. VA panels are renowned for having the best black levels. This is a fact. My question, and the point of this thread is, what, other than viewing angles, is the advantage of a IPS screen? It's not as if the viewing angles of a VA panel are awful. Am I missing something? I've seen loads of IPS panels now, and while some are better than others... the old NEC 2490WUXi (not the WUXi2) was awesome, but that was because it used a A-TW polariser. No one uses that any more. Why? Because is caused colour shifts on the very extreme edge of the viewing angle! Like.. so what?? IPS panel + TW polariser = WIN! But because they couldn't win the spec sheet wars with a 170 degree veiwing angle, they got rid, and now the WUXi2 is just another IPS panel with wishy washy blacks.

    I don't like the way this is going, when pro panels are being led by mass market requirements.



    Don't start using this thread to bring that up again!


    The problem is when I view these panels, I don't have a benchmark to judge them by. It's not often I get a change to get a colorimeter on a huge range of monitors at the same time. Also, conditions can hide a multitude of sins. In a bright room, light bleed issues, and low luminance angle issues are hidden.

    Is there anyone reading this that has a decent VA panel AND a IPS panel? If so, can you give me an honest opinion? Is the black level appreciably better on the VA?

    Before I roast £1500 on a S-VA panel I want to make sure I have all this covered.


    I can't be bothered checking for typos... so if there are any "teh"s in here.. that's just a common typo of mine... and I'm not trying to be 1337


    [edit]

    Oops!

    I missed this post...

    That's exactly what I am considering, yes. The SX3031W is in my sights at the moment. There's something nagging at the back of my mind however, that spending that much on a non IPS panel is somehow wrong. Have I been brainwashed as well? LOL

    BTW... the SX3031W is S-VA, not P-VA.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2010
  14. Elledan

    Elledan New Member

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    All I know is that I find myself looking at professional IPS displays every now and then, only to happily return to my current CRTs. From poor blacks, 60 Hz refresh, latency, ghosting to incredibly big pixels (nothing beyond 1200 pixels vertically until you reach 30". Really?), everything about switching to those IPS displays screams downgrade if you're coming from a good set of CRTs.

    With *VA you still got gamma shift, albeit less severe than with TN, backlight bleeding (common with all LCDs), worse colour reproduction than with IPS (AFAICT, may have changed recently?), and it's still limited to 60 Hz.

    TN I won't even bother with. I have had to colour calibrate a number of them (i1D2), and they're downright saddening when it comes to performance after calibration.
     
  15. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Why is refresh rate an issue on persistent-image screens? I loved CRT's, but these days the convenience of TFT's is just too good.

    Pook: You're right, the SX3031W's panel is listed as "30"WS Samsung S-PVA (LTM300M1)" and the goggles of fail came down. :p
     
  16. The_Beast

    The_Beast I like wood ಠ_ಠ

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    IPS vs TN is no match. My laptop, which I assume is TN is terrible to look at next to my U2410, all the color pop more with the IPS panel and all the black are actually black instead of dark gray.
     
  17. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    60Hz is not an issue. TFT panels don't "scan" in lines cascading down the screen as CRTs do. There is no flicker on a TFT and no difference between 60Hz and 120Hz.

    Some are pretty good, but generally yeah. Not really concerned about them though.. it's the VA - IPS debate that is of keen interest to me at the moment. TN panels are pretty much budget oriented (terrible) and games oriented (usually pretty good but not really made for accuracy).

    Hmmm... You know something bad about that panel that I don't?

    Yup... it's a VA vs IPS thead though :)


    This colour "pop" that everyone is talking about is as a result of the wide gamut, not the fact that it's IPS. A wide gamut VA screen would do the same.


    Krikkit has me nervous with his comments on that Samsung panel now LOL. If it's a crock of crap that's another potential new screen gone off my list.
     
  18. smc8788

    smc8788 ...at least I have chicken

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    :hehe:

    Not true.

    I'll admit there's no difference between 60Hz and 120Hz in desktop applications (which is what you're probably talking about) and 99% of other stuff, but fire up a fast-paced FPS/racing game and there's a world of difference.
     
  19. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    smc: Pook means that compared to a CRT where it's totally obvious between 60Hz and 120Hz, whatever you do, a TFT hardly shows a difference unless you've got a seriously fast image change.

    You give me too much credit Pook. I don't know anything about it other than the usual info about S-PVA panels, what I mean is I just jabbed PVA into my post and missed the S.

    I think the panel manufacturer is pretty irrelevant really - there aren't that many manufacturers of panels when it comes down to it, the way to know if a panel is awesome or crap is buying and seeing/reading a review.

    If Eizo have put that panel in a £1600+ monitor I wouldn't expect anything but beauty.

    [edit] It looks like the Samsung 305T shares the same panel as the SX3031W, but I would expect better electronics behind it. Even then the Samsung got pretty glowing reviews.
     
    Last edited: 17 Jul 2010
  20. 13eightyfour

    13eightyfour Formerly Titanium Angel

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    The Samsung 305T uses the same 30"WS Samsung S-PVA panel apparently and if you can find one is around the same price as the Dell 3008.

    Got to be worth a look at least?
     

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