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Displays Is IPS all that?

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by Pookeyhead, 17 Jul 2010.

  1. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    LOL.. OK. That's OK then... I thought you were gonna pull some damning review out of a hat and go "Tah dah"


    Indeed. I'm leaning more towards this panel than the NEC at the moment.

    I've just finished decorating for the day, so sat with my wife eating pizza. She now has my old FWP2405 and she was watching Glee on it... apart from the true awfullness of glee, I still thought "This looks great". I was sitting well off axis, and sure the contrast fell off a little, but the black levels didn't change at all. I just can't help but think a huge, wide gamut version of such a panel would be something to reckon with.

    Right now I'd pay good money to spend a few hours with the NEC LCD3090WQXi and the Eizo SX3031W just to see what's what.
     
  2. Elledan

    Elledan New Member

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    Actually LCDs refresh too, at least AM TFT ones :) They refresh the image the same way a CRT does, starting from top left and working its way down to bottom right. This is where the v-sync issue originates, for example. Why flicker is less noticeable with LCDs is because the previous image doesn't fade before the next one is produced. This can be seen on a CRT as black lines where the phosphor has already faded back to black with the new image being produced right behind it.

    It's also why modern CRTs can't do 60 Hz well while old CRTs had no trouble with it. Phosphors were made to fade faster to adapt to the larger resolutions and faster refresh rate, this means that at 60 Hz on a modern CRT the image will be mostly faded to black before it can be refreshed, hence producing the kaleidoscope-like flicker effect.

    As for no difference between 60 and 120 Hz, in a game it's the difference between 60 and 120 FPS, and with framerates in general 120 Hz means that you can display more frames of the source properly without messy interpolation and possibly dropping frames (60 Hz monitor can display at 60/30/15 FPS, a 24 FPS movie is therefore crammed into 30 FPS with sometimes noticeable loss of quality).
     
  3. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    My point was that they don't flicker. There is no more flicker at 60Hz than at 120hz. I wasn't referring to image frame rates, smoothness of motion, or pull down artefacts... merely that on a static image there is no flicker of luminance levels like on a CRT, and therefore from a eye strain point of view, refresh rate in irrelevant.
     
  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    oh dear....

    http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034025854&postcount=29


    Looks like the NEC is just as bad as the Dell then.

    I'm starting to arrive at the conclusion that IPS is crap unless it uses the A-TW polariser... which no one does any more.

    PVA for me I think. Unless I can manage to confirm exactly WHAT polarisers are used in various monitors. Published data on exact panel types used is hard to come by.
     
  5. GregTheRotter

    GregTheRotter Well-Known Member

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  6. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    It's hard enough to find out what panel is in a monitor, finding out what polariser is probably more like pulling teeth.
     
  7. 13eightyfour

    13eightyfour Formerly Titanium Angel

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    Agreed, TFTcentral does list monitors by panel, but ive seen a few that became wrong when the manufacturer sneakily decided to change the panel.

    I know the cheap LG i bought on fairly good reviews, had the panel changed later and reviews after the panel change werent as good as the original.
     
  8. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    Exactly. They list the NEC LCD2490WUXi as having a H-IPS panel with A-TW polariser... which it does.. but neglected to update it when the WUXi2 came out.. which doesn't. They also list the NEC LCD3090WQXi as having a A-TW polariser... when it doesn't.


    I wonder if fellow bit-techers can help me. Anyone with the following screens:

    Dell U2711
    NEC LCD2490WUXi2
    NEC LCD3090WQXi

    ..in fact, ANY large S or H-IPS panel.

    Can you replicate the the video I did in the 3008 thread?

    Get a totally black screen up with no borders or window gadgets showing. I just created a new photoshop doc at the screen's native res, filled with pure black and pressed "f" twice to get it full screen.

    Can you then video it in moderate room lighting from all angles?

    I've decided I'm not spending a penny until I know I'm not gonna get a repeat of the 3008 problem.

    For reference, in case you didn't read the other thread, the video is below.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQUIaWKAdV4

    Incidentally, does anyone know why the Samsung 305T Plus is practically non existent in UK retailers? It's a possible candidate: wide gamut, S-PVA, and a good price. Just lacks hardware LUT... but so did the Dell. I'll be damned if I can find one though.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jul 2010
  9. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    Or just test the "Blank" screensaver. :p

    I think the Samsung is like rocking-horse **** because it came out in 2007 or so. The TR review is dated May '07.

    Presumably it's been discontinued to refine the range. There's the XL series now, with a 30", and not bothered with a cheap one.
     
    Last edited: 18 Jul 2010
  10. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    I would not get my hopes up for the Dell U2711.
     
  11. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    I'm sure the U2711 doesn't use the Polarizer, the NEC LCD2490UXi used to polarizer but had a pitifully low RGB gamut(I think 78%).

    The original NEC 2690WUXi had that legendary polarizer, it was quite excellent, although the colors were a bit oversaturated.

    To me, I think that it's just bad QC, quite a few S-IPS and H-IPS monitors just have some really bad backlight bleeding(of course for some reason, the newer NEC models don't), there's quite a few S-PVA monitors that do, but I haven't had the luxury of testing the Eizo ones to see how well built they are.

    Why didn't you get the 3090 first?
     
  12. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    Why is that? I've seen it. It was in a very bright room however, so couldn't evaluate if it suffers from the IPS back light bleed issue. How's your U2410 in this regard? On a black screen is there any light bleed off axis?

    I posted that link earlier to a 3090WQXi showing some pretty bad bleeding.. easily as bad as the Dell I've just returned.

    This thread makes interesting reading. It just appears that all IPS panels suffer from this, and it just gets worse as they get bigger. I just wish I could get some video evidence of some of these panels misbehaving... or behaving depending on how bad they are.



    Because everyone raved about the Dell. Not a single review of ANY panel mentions the light bleeding problem, which I find weird. It looks like the 3090 would have had the same problem anyway.

    That damned Eizo is damned expensive though. With VAT it's £1800!
     
  13. memeroot

    memeroot aged and experianced

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    i love my tn ;)
     
  14. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    I'm guessing that with increased size, more backlight bleeding is more likely to occur, I don't think that it's really limited to S-IPS though, as with bigger sizes you tend to get more bleeding naturally, since there's a higher chance for cock ups to happen.

    I don't ever recall seeing the LCD2490WUXi with bleeding though, although it was the polarizer one. Maybe it's inherent in IPS panels to bleed like an anemic, but then again, so do some of the older TN panels that were +30". S-PVA still has some bleeding issues on HDTVs as far as I know of, and seeing as I haven't seen any large sized Eizo monitors...
     
  15. GoodBytes

    GoodBytes How many wifi's does it have?

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    Well as the 27inch panel is form LG, and is essentially the same (but bigger and higher resolution) than the 24inch version, I ASSUME (as I don't have it) that it's doesn't have a polariser system in place, as the 24inch one doesn't, as you well noted.

    For me the only way to see it, is with a black screen (large, black, full-screen, image).
    Wide screen video's or dark, in game environment is not noticeable at 50% (default) brightness level at night. It's a little bit visible at 100% brightness at night.
    In other words, it's there, you have to look for it, but it's not as large as what some video's I saw from other displays on YouTube. During the day, even at 100% brightness I don't see it, even up close, with a full black screen. (I just did both (morning, noon and night) tests to confirm).

    Light bleed in term of backlit bleeding, is very low to zero on my display. I know that TFT central showed backlit bleeding with this display. But, when I tried replicated what they had, I don't have it any where near that mush. I was expecting backlit bleeding on the corning, something said to be common on many IPS panels, but to my surprised it's incredibly low.
    I know that the U2410 had pass trough different panels revision, all by keeping the same revision of the monitor. The early ones had the tint issues, others had serious (to me) backlit bleeding (maybe that is the one that TFT Central had). I guess I got the newer ones, where I don't have either (well a bit visible but that is at 100% brightness, in a pitch black environment, and I go blind with any white content presented on the screen.. - too bright for me at night).
     
    Last edited: 19 Jul 2010
  16. Bloody_Pete

    Bloody_Pete Technophile

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    It looks like your only hope is that OLED kicks off ASAP...
     
  17. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    Perhaps it's the 100% brightness.

    I know that my NEC LCD1970NX, which is older than a Ferrari F430, has quite a bit less bleeding since I set the brightness at 30% and the contrast at 45%.

    On 100% it bleeds like the English Royal family in the Victorian era.
     
  18. Rofl_Waffle

    Rofl_Waffle New Member

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    Anyone checked out the LaCie 730?

    It is a S-PVA, I think the panel from the samsung 305T but it sports a RGB LED backlight so it kicks ass in terms of color gamut and your face won't catch on fire from the heat.
     
  19. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    I've heard of it, but $3000 is quite steep. Still the price you pay for RGB LEDs.
     
  20. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    :)


    Perhaps. It makes sense. It's just that so far as I can tell, they all do it. Only the smaller IPS panels seem to fair better.

    LOL... a 30" OLED. Considering it's £2000 for a 10 inch OLED TV... I can imagine!



    No IPS panel that I know allows the full range of brightness vie lamp dimming. The Dell 3008 kept the backlights at 100% and artificially dimmed the screen. Manufacturers do this to keep contrast ratios high... and we all love those contrast ratio figs don't we? LOL Unfortunately, "10,000:1 contrast ratio" sells more panels than "0.2cd/m2 black level" The NEC only allows the first 25% of brightness range via lamp dimming.. but maybe that's all the improvement you need. I wish I could see one working :( Judging by You Tube footage, I don't think it eliminates the problem sufficiently... but I'd still like to see with my own eyes.



    It's also £2800 ;)
     

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