Discussion in 'General' started by losermeetsworld, 18 May 2006.
No way an Italian speaks like you about European, and most of all, italian cars.
No hard feelings but i do not believe that you're from Italy.
Well.. i'm Spanish and for me the most powerfull and beautifull cars are Hispano Suiza.
Guess I got mixed up between this flame war and the last one, where it was US vs. Japan.
But the idea's the same, ain't it? Cars with lil' engines and big horsepower against cars with big engines and bigger horsepower.
Its not about size of engines and horsepower alone though, its also about chassis engineering. I'd like to see *any* American car handle as well as a Lotus in stock form! In Europe we stopped making sports cars with live rear axles and leaf springs 30 years ago. In the US, they still do....
Its not to say the Americans can't make a great car, but they great things are typically different from great European cars to great American ones.
Altron, we're down to a difference in tastes now. There are probably some Americans who would get their kicks driving around in European cars (or even Japanese), just like some Europeans would like driving around in American cars. In general though this isn't the case.
It's probably a lot to do with how we're brought up and what we see around us too. Ever heard a song that you thought was terrible, but once it got played over and over and everyone else likes it you end up thinking it's good? It's the same thing with cars. In America a lot of people dream of having a muscle-car with a throbbing big V8 (AFAIK, correct me if I'm wrong). In Britain a lot of people dream of having a sharp-handling sports car with a screaming high-revving engine (in my experience).
I think this thread has pretty much shown that:
- Europe makes cars that appeal most to Europeans
- American makes cars that appeal most to Americans
how have half of JK's posts not been deleted for blatant flaming?
Maybe this help to understand something... :
Have you ever thought driving down Main Street with this :
or this :
...not even in your wildest dreams.
i think the difference can be explained thus:
i know which i prefer
from your pics, what i see is :
US : ....
EU : ....
Jesus....yeah i heard that US makers still use leaf springs......just like they do in......India.
That goes to show how "behind" in terms of design or innovation the US makers can be.
I really thought that India was the only place to still use this method....ahh well im proved wrong.
Nothing...and i mean nothing sounds like a ferrari...bar none. at low revs its quite humble but then hitting 2-4K revs she starts screaming like a whaling cat.
I'd have to say the best noises are from the F430/360 a Lambo murceliago(sp?) with a nice low rumble and then a beautiful Aston Vanquish with a roawing V12....just sublime noises, and best listened to at low speeds.
the S7's engine comes in a box from ford and the ls190283908249182 is used in other GM products thus it ain't bespoke
no bespoke=no super car
i love american cars. 4 out of 10 of my lottery car garage would be american ones hell I'll list them for you:
old stang(71 mach 1 in that crap yellow ford did.with the black bonnet)
Ram SRT-10 quad-cab
lets start a new argument. why do americans lash out/flame the instant they are provoked?
What do I have to do to prove it? Smoke a cigar and shoot someone while making love to a woman? Dude, its taste.
Dosent matter where the engine came from. They buy a ford block and modify the crap out of it. The only diference between that block and other blocks is tht it was inspected by ford then reinspected by the machinists. The difference between that block and a ferrari lump is that it began life with another badge.
In my book its called smart manufacturing. They use a 427 and modify the rest. Suits me fine. Ive seen 427's pull in ecess of 1000hp to the crank and still get better reliability than most of the italian made stuff.
@ the leaf spring comment. Leaf springs are used on work vehicles just like they are used everywere in the world including europe. Even MAN trucks use leaf springs and that vehicle was born and raised in germany.
@ the roads coments. There are twisty turny roads around here too. As you head to the rocky mountain belt things start looking like spagetti. Stereotypical road in the us is straight but not the case always. And im not talking about small eceptances. Small two lane mountain roads are common.
good for you!!! still not a supercar
but not on sports cars.
for the simple
i've underlined the important parts for those who have trouble reading such as long post by me the great piratetaco.
umm Italian cars have never been reknowned for their reliability (or rust proofing for that matter) so thats a pretty poor comparison.
Its different strokes for different folks, Europeans expect decent MPG figures (you seen our fuel prices?) and reliability as well as the ability to go round corners on a regular basis (not occasionally) which is an ability lacking in almost all of the american cars that I have driven including the crap that Chevy exports to Europe (oooh hang on they're mostly rebadged daewoos) and I get to drive a lot of cars in my job.
To top it all the car/truck that is at the start of the thread is japanese not american
on a final note big car big V8 engine - penis extension
btw i'm drunk so tough luck if I offended the americans, your cars don't go round corners because they're big and wallowly and handle like ocean liners on the twisty stuff.....bit like a 2.8 Ford Capri
Where are you getting this 'American cars handle like whales' information? I would really like to know. What was the make and model of the car you drove? Where did you drive it? What precisely did you dislike about the handling?
Unless, of course, you haven't actually driven one, and you're just making generalizations without any factual evidence.
Its all a generalization. Its true in eu as it is in the US. people get sucked by a stereotype and the media and think with the brains of others. And thats fine by me.
Ill be the first to admit that older caddies were like boats in the sense that their suspension was super soft and made the ride feel as if it was ridding on mush. But that was the whole point in that. I recently had the pleasure of being in the passenger seat of an unrestored original 68stang. All it had was a 351windstor and an auto. However it did sport some modern tread. Ill tell you what. It acelerated like a bat out of hell and the driver threw me against the door on a sharp turn. No traction loss whatsoever. The newer stangs are far more civilised in the sense that they use independent rear ends and sport coil overs insted of leafs. Last sports car that had leafs was in the early 80's.
As for mpg, just as italians are not known for reliability american cars are not known for great fuel economy. But they are getting better. Allot better. A modern v8 gets better economy than the older inline 6's and v6's. while producing 2x-3x the power. You guys see hp figgures, and forget that tourque factors in the engine. My buddys inline 6 suv cruizes @ 65mph at a lil over 1600rpm and if needed he can ride it all through 7k rpm withought hesitation. It gets 22 or so mpg highway with a 16mpg city estimate, still not great but a step in the rite direction. You also have displacement on demand v8's that will drive as 4's when you need them to and as a 8 when you want it to. Pair a displacement on demand engine with a manual tranny and a frugal driver and you have over 30mpg highway economy.
I dont have to sacrifice vehicle size and engine size to get fuel economy. My Astro with a 4.3L v6 gets the same economy as the 3L turbo diesel thats in the newer merc vans. And can tow more as well as acelerate better. yes the engine is larger but its not hampering my economy compared to those diesel vans. Not to mention the engine has 20 years of evolution behind it making it produce almost 100LB of tourque per littre. Its still efi and still a pushrod engine witch makes it reliable and honestly dam near bullet proof.
In any case dismissing the saleen s7 as a supercar is idiotic. In my book its worlds better than a ferrari period. Id be curious to put the saleen s7 agains the likes of pagani and ferrari on real head to head. Throw in a lingenfelter c6 z06 and a top of the line porsche RUF and maybe it could be a fun episode.
what american cars have i driven? a lot of 60's and 70's Cameros, Pintos, a Mustang or 2, couple of Cadillacs (admittedly limos and they are boats), Shelby Cobra, couple of Chargers and quite a few more that I don't remember because I drive and work on about 10 cars a day in my job (I do car car alarms, satnav and multimedia as well as general electrical repairs)
I may have been a bit harsh last night because I was drunk but generally about 90% do handle like boats on UK roads but thats possibly because they're so damn big and our roads are small and poorly maintained which makes them more suited to japanese and european cars
edit and I believe MAN trucks now use air suspension not leaf springs, as do most other european trucks (I could be wrong on this I don't know a lot about trucks)
corvettes still use leaf springs
and while leaf springs can be made to work well on the track, the payoff is the fact it will ruin the ride to such an extent the car will be hell on anything other than the smoothest road surface. not a problem with late 20th century suspension design in proper sports cars.
Exactly... work vehicles. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't we talking about high performance cars? I'm sure leaf springs are ideal for a work vehicle/truck, but for sports cars, they're pretty rubbish to be honest... couple that with a live axle, and you've got real problems. Just think about it.. one rear wheel is physically connected to the other with a great big iron bar.
Are you telling me, even for a minute, that having both wheel connected physically will have no detrimental effect when on an uneven road surface, or even an adverse camber for that matter??
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